The Subframe Market Grows and Specializes

[tyoneal]

Seems to me the items that stand out the most are:

Regular Sway Bars-Type?, Size?, Adjustable Yes/No?

Splined Sway Bars (What kind and size, solid or hollow? Is there a choice in size?)

Rack and Pinion Steering (Except most don't mention the available ratios for them) Some Racks are mounted BELOW the frame for lower cg, however does that put your Rack in such a location where debris will hit it?

Weight vs standard subframe for each one

How much adjustability there is in setting the Caster/Camber etc for each one frame?

Price

Maximum Wheel and Tire width WITHOUT rubbing!

All have coil-over springs. What are the spring rates they use and what type of ride/purpose are they trying to achieve? (I know it depends on the weight of the engine, however that in mind aren't they still chosen for a specific type of ride?)

Double adjustable shocks

Do you need custom headers for the frame or will standard one work?$$$

Dropped Spindles VS Dropped Springs (I think I've read that dropped springs are more desirable) Please check this out by someone else. In any event there is a difference, and what is the difference?

Do you use Standard Metal Body Bushings or the Low metal body bushings to help lower cg? If you use the lower does it mess anything else up regarding fitment of the rest of the parts?

What Test have been run on these frames vs. the standard frame with Hochkis Arms, sway bars etc. Was there a difference? if so, how much, and why? Is the % in change worth the extra price of the new frame?

Martz is the only company that has several frames, each designed for a different purpose. Is the difference note worthy, or a marketing angle?

Are any of the frames truly superior to the others or at this level is it a matter of what style do you like the best, or which is the cheapest?

I hope not, but I don't know. Wish I did because it's a pretty big chunk of cash for any of them, and a lot of installation time. And to top it off the original subframe is already installed and waiting to be upgraded.

I know this is blunt, "but inquiring minds want to know!"

[lil427z]

Originally Posted by Bowtieracing

Tyonel, good documentation!!!

thanks for info .
rickk

[mazspeed]

Originally Posted by 1969L-89Rag

I saw a new Subframe and Suspension system at the Englishtown Swap meet this weekend. It was Fantastic!!!

All 4130N Chromemolly, powder coated

Special "Satchell Link" AMLS rear suspension. BRT Steering Rack! All Racing Technology!!!!

They had for 1st and 2nd Gen Camaro and Firebirds, Mustangs and others.

I am going to check out their shop on the way to Carlisle and test a car with the system in it.

If it works as good as they claim I am ordering a system for my 69 Camaro!!!



I cut and attached a photo from their website.

I thought you might want to add them to your GREAT Compiliation.

Kind of hard to tell, but it didn't look all that strong. No beef in certain areas where it needs it. At least that's what it looked like on the small pictures.

[crazycarl]

That MaxG stuff looks scary, I wouldn't put it under a Geo Metro, let alone a 3400 pound Camaro! Racing technology doesn't always mean better. There are a lot of racecars out there held together with bailing wire and bubble gum.

[NEVER ENOUGH]

Ty,

Great thread. Keep up the good work.

[Silver69Camaro]

I'm going to answer these questions for people wondering about the AME C6 subframe.

Originally Posted by tyoneal

Seems to me the items that stand out the most are:

Regular Sway Bars-Type?, Size?, Adjustable Yes/No?
Conventional sway bar, 7/8" (rate is actually more important...), non adjustable.

Splined Sway Bars (What kind and size, solid or hollow? Is there a choice in size?)
Not available. We have difficulty justifying to cost.

Rack and Pinion Steering (Except most don't mention the available ratios for them) Some Racks are mounted BELOW the frame for lower cg, however does that put your Rack in such a location where debris will hit it?
R&P is tucked close to the engine. 15:1 and 20:1 available. 15:1 racks have modified torsion bars and spool valves.

Weight vs standard subframe for each one
Fully assembled frame (with 14" brakes) is 40lbs lighter than stock frame w/ drum brakes & PS.

How much adjustability there is in setting the Caster/Camber etc for each one frame?
LOTS. More than you'll need.

Price
$5950 w/o brakes. $2945 bare.

Maximum Wheel and Tire width WITHOUT rubbing!
275mm on 10" rim. Always double check, section width specs can vary.

All have coil-over springs. What are the spring rates they use and what type of ride/purpose are they trying to achieve? (I know it depends on the weight of the engine, however that in mind aren't they still chosen for a specific type of ride?)
550lbs/in. Ride is firm, but not harsh. If you've driven an M3, it's similar to that. This spring rate is optimal for those running an aluminum LS engine.

Double adjustable shocks
Available. Not recommended unless if you know how to adjust them. Be honest. Single adjustables have our own engineered valving.
Do you need custom headers for the frame or will standard one work?$$$
We stock custom-made headers specifically for this subframe. Very high quality.


Do you use Standard Metal Body Bushings or the Low metal body bushings to help lower cg? If you use the lower does it mess anything else up regarding fitment of the rest of the parts?
Lowered bushings. No headaches required.

What Test have been run on these frames vs. the standard frame with Hochkis Arms, sway bars etc. Was there a difference? if so, how much, and why? Is the % in change worth the extra price of the new frame?
While some performance metrics can be quantified, others cannot. This makes it difficult to answer.

[vipercuda]

Originally Posted by crazycarl

That MaxG stuff looks scary, I wouldn't put it under a Geo Metro, let alone a 3400 pound Camaro! Racing technology doesn't always mean better. There are a lot of racecars out there held together with bailing wire and bubble gum.

When you make statements like this one, you should back it up with some facts. Why do you say it looks "scary"???? You imply it is inferior quality by your post. I am curious.

[crazycarl]

Originally Posted by vipercuda

When you make statements like this one, you should back it up with some facts. Why do you say it looks "scary"???? You imply it is inferior quality by your post. I am curious.

True, and I can't back it up with any hard evidence. I'm not an engineer or a chassis builder. I've seen almost everything that's out there at one point or another but I still have no bigger box to stand on that anyone else.

All I can go off is what I can see on the website for that particular company. Now, it may be the most durable and lighter weight kit available on the market, but it still looks like an erector set. When I look at their website, I don't see anything that says it's meant to be a race only piece. It may work better than the AME, DSE and CAC combined.

I don't want to start a flame war by commenting on specific points that raise my eyebrows, but I will mention areas. I wonder about the durability of a fabricated spindle on a car seeing street use and a couple things on the a-arms.

Please feel free to PM me if you want to tell me I'm crazy so that no one else will know. :-)

Oh wait, I kinda already admitted to that.

[mcode]

i would just like to reply to the comment of "That MaxG stuff looks scary, I wouldn't put it under a Geo Metro, let alone a 3400 pound Camaro! Racing technology doesn't always mean better. There are a lot of racecars out there held together with bailing wire and bubble gum."

First of all i am an mechinal engineer with ford Motor company for 15 years and i am currently involved with the new 5.0L engine that will soon grace the new mustang

Anyways i have purchased the Max G rear .

My main concern when i purchased the system was to have a bolt on kit --because i did not want to weld onto my 1970 mustang mach 1 .

so i looked for a excellent engineered kit that would actually increased the strength and rigidity of my car and not add excessive weight either. chromoly steel does this in spades---yes alot of companies the engineeering is suspect but i can tell you that the Max g from highland daytona racing is not one of them .


First of all i would like to say that i have a high pressure welding ticket when i was a power plant engineer and i was doing the maintaince on boiler compressor etc. So i can weld but that is not the point. i would rather have bolts increasing the rigidity and strength of a 40 year old car as it is a classic and it should not be welded onto.

Anyone with any structural egineering experience can tell you that the
part is only as strong as the part it is held together with.
Bridges are held together by bolts. The main goal is an engineered solution .
By welding you actually decrease the strength of the metal

The classic mustang and 1st gen camoro were economy cars and not very strong when new . Ford and gm made them cheap they were never ment to last this long. The mustang was based on the light duty falcon and was never meant to have all that power and last this long either --so anything that can help it last longer i would without a doubt as all classic car owners should.

The frame metal thickness is thin . Hell the Max G is 10 times thicker and stronger than my cars frame. the mounting points are with grade 8 bolts .This exoskeloton type of system actually increasses the strength of the car. **** the originall leaf springs --the loads are dispersed into 2 bolts front and rear. the Max g disperses the load in a greater area and reinforces the strength of the car at the same time.

I feel safer drivining my old car now than with stock components that were never that strong to begin with .

The new max g front for the ford and 1st gen camaro is a excellent front end solution as it addresses the inferior geometry and materials that were used by ford and gm back in the day. Plus it will make your old car last longer as it has just become stronger than it ever was from the factory

IF you want an excellent engineered solution that is easy to install look into the Max G and better yet talk to a real engineer instead of what you read or think you think . i did not go to university and also get my skill trade license just for fun. pLUS THE MANY YEARS OF REAL WORLD EXPERIANCE

Anyways enough of the sermon --i just wanted to set the record straight

[crazycarl]

I need to take a second and clarify. I just realized that what I was referring to as Max-G is NOT a Max-G. I can't find it now and I can't find the link either, but it's a completely different company that I could've sworn was listed earlier in this thread. I completely used the wrong "brand" name. It's like saying Chevy and meaning Ford.

I have the utmost respect for AME, their parts, company, and Art himself. My apologies for the inaccuracy of my statement before.