Would You Pay For This?

[SSLance]

I can only compare a SCCA PDX vs a NASA HPDE, as I haven't been to any of these other events before...but there was huge difference between these two above.

The main difference I experienced was the debrief meeting after each session where you had to go back and face the other drivers in your group to talk about what happened during the last session. Also discussed in these meetings with the other drivers AND instructors was what you were having trouble with and what you accomplished during the last session. That really cleaned up the issues that I encountered at the SCCA PDX which were for the most part basically wide open with little to none instruction or accountability.

With NASA they have the levels of HPDE 1,2,3 and 4. 1 requires an instructor in the car and runs with the 2s...3 requires an instructor again and runs with the 4s. Each driver has a log book and has to graduate from each level up to the next based on grading from the instructor and the organizers of the division of NASA. When I was in group 1, we had a guy with racing experience in a Pantos...running with us as he was working on his log book and gradings to work his way up to racing with NASA. It impressed me because he was WAY faster than the rest of us, but at one point I pointed him by in what I considered as a safe zone, but he wouldn't pass because he didn't want to take the chance of it screwing up his grading.

In my last session of the second day, I was running with the 2s and I had the leader of groups 3-4 ride along with me to grade me on whether I should be passed up into the 3s. It was like being back in school all over again...there was accountability, careful to do the correct things at ALL times, then about halfway through the session he started teaching me different ways to get around the track faster so that I'd be more comfortable running with the faster cars\drivers.

Point is, a structure like this is MUCH safer than a just put them out on the track and run as fast as you can kind of structure. And YES...I would pay more to run in a scenario set up like this than just an open track day. But it has to be more than just having instructors on hand, you should build the whole program so that the instructors are able to help the drivers progress through different levels while keeping everyone safe at the same time.

[Ns RS]

Tim,

Agree with Gregs' thoughts on this. Auto X school (democratic) and pay as you go road course instruction on top of the entrance fee. Ron Sutton on track would be fantastic.

I attended Heidts weekend and Motorstate - road course only and personally came away with wanting to learn more. Would I pay additional to have instruction on Auto X and road course absolutely.
Apart from the trepidation of being on the roadcourse theres a great feeling to be had after running one to the best of your ability/skills. Its that feeling that will push the hobby further - the challenge lies in doing it safely for everyone wanting/capable enough to cross that threshold in progressive steps.
I had a fire resistant jumpsuit, approved helmet, 5 pt restraints, fire bottle etc.. and took my own time/pace. It left me wanting to learn more and the desire to do it again.

Auto X school at Heidts weekend is the goal this year (thx Tim for sponsoring) along with more roadcourse runs - safely of course and having the option of pay as you go instruction is a big big plus.

[71RS/SS396]

Originally Posted by GregWeld

Ya know -- ya got me thinkin' now - and that's NEVER a good outcome….


But these "EVENTS" could be made into "workshop/events"…. where the goal is not really to win anything - or be the fastest anything.. but rather just to IMPROVE EVERYTHING…


In other words -- a couple pro instructors -- toss in a couple guys that are dang near pros (a lessor fee structure for just tips and help)… AND you could toss in a guy like Ron Sutton for tuning.

So if the instructor/ride along semi pro -- says the car is "this or that"…. a guy like Ron could be there to DISCUSS (not work on!) what can be done either with the current set up - or with additional work/parts to make the car better… which as he has stated - will help to make the driver better.


Just thinkin' is all.


Most of "US" --- pointing at myself --- are real amateurs in the suspension (and driving) department -- so it would be nice - and fun - to learn a ton at these sessions…

Greg, I like the idea of this and I think it is something worth exploring for sure.
I think we can do this and still allow the big dogs to go out on their bonzi runs if they choose, it will be a matter of managing the track time.

[71RS/SS396]

Originally Posted by Ns RS

Tim,

Agree with Gregs' thoughts on this. Auto X school (democratic) and pay as you go road course instruction on top of the entrance fee. Ron Sutton on track would be fantastic.

I attended Heidts weekend and Motorstate - road course only and personally came away with wanting to learn more. Would I pay additional to have instruction on Auto X and road course absolutely.
Apart from the trepidation of being on the roadcourse theres a great feeling to be had after running one to the best of your ability/skills. Its that feeling that will push the hobby further - the challenge lies in doing it safely for everyone wanting/capable enough to cross that threshold in progressive steps.
I had a fire resistant jumpsuit, approved helmet, 5 pt restraints, fire bottle etc.. and took my own time/pace. It left me wanting to learn more and the desire to do it again.

Auto X school at Heidts weekend is the goal this year (thx Tim for sponsoring) along with more roadcourse runs - safely of course and having the option of pay as you go instruction is a big big plus.

One of the problems we had last year with the auto-x school at Heidts was people bailed out of the school because there was road course time open at the same time so we had a low participation in the school so I'm not sure it was worth the investment. I would prefer we concentrate on one discipline per day at the events because of this.

[Ben@SpeedTech]

Hey guys. I haven't participated in a "big" event yet, although I did attend the RTTH in 2012 as a spectator. So, take my thoughts as an outsider without mainstream pro touring based event track time experience, if need be.

Let me start with a question to verify so that I'm not misunderstanding- Are you proposing that folks pay to have an instructor for road course racing, for auto X racing, or both?

Let me then ask, at what point did pro touring events start catering to people who want to be amateur professional drivers with near full on race cars only? Not trying to be sarcastic or a donkey here, I'm really asking this.

I'm all about safety, and I think to go fast in road course racing requires decent instruction, especially if you're interested in pushing your car to it's limits. I'm looking forward to the day when I can afford to attend a real racing school.

Unfortunately I'm one of those guys that has to stand on the corner with a sign that reads "will work for parts", my projects have all been low budget, because of family and other obligations my toys are lowest on my spare money priority list, and I do the best I can with what I got. At the end of the day I have what I think would be a fairly competitive car that gets driven daily but I can't attend many events because I just don't have the coin to get to them, especially if the entrance fee is $200 +. I wouldn't say anything here if I thought I was a minority but from what I've read, generally speaking there are many folks like me.

I've attended a handful of local events since building the car. Each of these cost $50 or less to race and there were plenty of newbies. The most organized (read strict) event I attended was a local SCCA autoX. The instruction there basically consisted of Drive smart and not stupid, walk the course, take a few ride alongs if you're not familiar with how this works, invite a ride along with you if you want tips to improve your time, and have a good time. If you drive like a nut you will be asked to leave. During the whole day only one car spun out, but he got the car under control quickly, didn't veer off the course, and didn't even knock down any cones. I guess he found his car's limit and he did fine for the rest of the day after that.

At all the events I attended I had a blast and went home excited to make changes to the car and attend another event. If where this is headed means attending autoX based events for $400-500 dollars entrance fee than I'll have to go back to drag racing for $25 a shot. All the excitement to run autoX at the same events as those that could be considered part time " professional race drivers", the opportunity to meet some of them, to ask them for a ride along and possibly have them have a run driving my car, the ability to chat with other drivers to get tips on driving and tuning, etc etc., all that goes in the toilet because pro touring has suddenly become the guys with the fattest wallets are the only ones that get to play.

My car can barely top 135 on the top end and I'd be cautious for a while to push it much past what some of you guys are doing in 3rd gear on a road course. I don't want to crash any more than anyone else on the course wants me to. I know at this point the limits of my driving skill and and the limits of my car and would likely stay below them until I felt I could take it to the next level. I think 10 or 15 minutes of basic tips from a more experienced driver could get me safely going. If I don't have legitimate professional training and years of racing experience, or a $100K + race car disguised in street car clothing with 600+ hp, does that mean I'm not invited to have some fun running a few laps on a road course? At what point does the little guy newbie get to participate aside from having won the lottery?

Again, I'm not saying this to chaff anyone's hide, I just want to share some insight from the other side of the fence. I think that when huge limitations, whether it be experience, training, or financial, get dropped on an event, that highly limits who can and will attend events. Those that can't meet those obligations will have their dreams put to rest and they'll quietly go away. The result of that is the sport will diminish amongst anyone who doesn't have a big bank account. Really that's not what the pro-touring or any car racing is really about, it's about opening it up to anyone so the sport can survive.

From my point of view, the pro-touring movement was designed so that anyone can have fun, from the guy with a stock $1500 '84 Camaro to the guy with the $300,000 '69 Camaro, and we could do so in a run what you brung atmosphere. It's easy to see some of the biggest events have turned into disguised race cars participating and guys like me don't stand a chance to be invited. I say who cares about watching, I wanna race.

I was under the impression that the whole idea of all this was to create a venue so that you didn't have to have sponsors and a $400,000 car to see track time. The whole idea was that we didn't need to be overly competitive, secretive, and have engineers on our race team to build a better car so we could win the big prize. Pro touring originated so that anyone could enjoy track time without the burdens associated with professional racing. Is it ok if we just keep it that way?

That's my .02 I guess, thanks for listening.

[Ns RS]

Originally Posted by 71RS/SS396

One of the problems we had last year with the auto-x school at Heidts was people bailed out of the school because there was road course time open at the same time so we had a low participation in the school so I'm not sure it was worth the investment. I would prefer we concentrate on one discipline per day at the events because of this.

One discipline per day sounds like the plan so as to not overlap while maintaining class participation. If you guys do Auto X and or Roadcourse school count me in.

Having attended MCACN this year I saw Heidts promoting the 2014 event already and met up with some 2013 observers that are putting in a quadlink to participate next year. I get the feeling that excitement is buidling, more participants will want to partake, making for bigger future events.

Challenge lies in doing so within a structured format that is safe for all parties involved.

[BMR Sales]

Originally Posted by SSLance

I can only compare a SCCA PDX vs a NASA HPDE, as I haven't been to any of these other events before...but there was huge difference between these two above.

The main difference I experienced was the debrief meeting after each session where you had to go back and face the other drivers in your group to talk about what happened during the last session. Also discussed in these meetings with the other drivers AND instructors was what you were having trouble with and what you accomplished during the last session. That really cleaned up the issues that I encountered at the SCCA PDX which were for the most part basically wide open with little to none instruction or accountability.

With NASA they have the levels of HPDE 1,2,3 and 4. 1 requires an instructor in the car and runs with the 2s...3 requires an instructor again and runs with the 4s. Each driver has a log book and has to graduate from each level up to the next based on grading from the instructor and the organizers of the division of NASA. When I was in group 1, we had a guy with racing experience in a Pantos...running with us as he was working on his log book and gradings to work his way up to racing with NASA. It impressed me because he was WAY faster than the rest of us, but at one point I pointed him by in what I considered as a safe zone, but he wouldn't pass because he didn't want to take the chance of it screwing up his grading.

In my last session of the second day, I was running with the 2s and I had the leader of groups 3-4 ride along with me to grade me on whether I should be passed up into the 3s. It was like being back in school all over again...there was accountability, careful to do the correct things at ALL times, then about halfway through the session he started teaching me different ways to get around the track faster so that I'd be more comfortable running with the faster cars\drivers.

Point is, a structure like this is MUCH safer than a just put them out on the track and run as fast as you can kind of structure. And YES...I would pay more to run in a scenario set up like this than just an open track day. But it has to be more than just having instructors on hand, you should build the whole program so that the instructors are able to help the drivers progress through different levels while keeping everyone safe at the same time.

That is similar to how we run things in PCA

T.C.

[71RS/SS396]

Ben, I don't think anyone should be excluded at all, I'm trying to do the opposite and figure out what makes financial sense for everyone involved (participants, sponsors, and promoters). This thread has more to do with the road course than auto-x since the speeds are lower for auto-x the risks are far lower. If you think you can get to 10-15 minutes of tips from someone and you are ready for a road course you are sadly mistaken. I think the real answer to this is going to be several classes for different levels of skill and car so everyone can play. We need to address peoples driving skills as part of an overall safety plan before the unthinkable happens. I've been on track at these events and had people do some pretty stupid stuff in front of me either from driving over their head or from plain just not knowing any better.

[71RS/SS396]

Originally Posted by SSLance

I can only compare a SCCA PDX vs a NASA HPDE, as I haven't been to any of these other events before...but there was huge difference between these two above.

The main difference I experienced was the debrief meeting after each session where you had to go back and face the other drivers in your group to talk about what happened during the last session. Also discussed in these meetings with the other drivers AND instructors was what you were having trouble with and what you accomplished during the last session. That really cleaned up the issues that I encountered at the SCCA PDX which were for the most part basically wide open with little to none instruction or accountability.

With NASA they have the levels of HPDE 1,2,3 and 4. 1 requires an instructor in the car and runs with the 2s...3 requires an instructor again and runs with the 4s. Each driver has a log book and has to graduate from each level up to the next based on grading from the instructor and the organizers of the division of NASA. When I was in group 1, we had a guy with racing experience in a Pantos...running with us as he was working on his log book and gradings to work his way up to racing with NASA. It impressed me because he was WAY faster than the rest of us, but at one point I pointed him by in what I considered as a safe zone, but he wouldn't pass because he didn't want to take the chance of it screwing up his grading.

In my last session of the second day, I was running with the 2s and I had the leader of groups 3-4 ride along with me to grade me on whether I should be passed up into the 3s. It was like being back in school all over again...there was accountability, careful to do the correct things at ALL times, then about halfway through the session he started teaching me different ways to get around the track faster so that I'd be more comfortable running with the faster cars\drivers.

Point is, a structure like this is MUCH safer than a just put them out on the track and run as fast as you can kind of structure. And YES...I would pay more to run in a scenario set up like this than just an open track day. But it has to be more than just having instructors on hand, you should build the whole program so that the instructors are able to help the drivers progress through different levels while keeping everyone safe at the same time.

Lance, I think the plan is to make sure people have the necessary skills and equipment to move up. These discussions are going to help everyone involved formulate a format that is safe and fun so people will keep attending and the hobby will grow.

[SSLance]

That sounds very good to me.