How one confused pilot killed over 200 people..

[Simmo]

It's quite common for a Second Officer to have control of the aircraft (above a given altitude), but the chain of command is always Captain - First Officer - Second Officer. So the SO can "have the controls" (ie manipulate the aircraft) but the responsibility of the trajectory of the aircraft lies with the guy in the left seat (Captain or FO in this case). So here we have the Captain Dubois, FO Robert & SO Bonin in that order.

Bonin appears to have been so overloaded he's load shedded to the point that he is relying on ab initio skills to attempt to recover the aircraft. Scary stuff but it happens, even in experienced crew. The trick is to manage the situation so it doesnt get even close to that level of workload. In some parts of the world guys can be in that seat with little over a commercial pilots licence so its not surprising he was struggling.

As low cost carriers continue to dominate, and the bean counters continue to shave every margin (and people continue to fly low cost to save $3 and go without a biscuit) I personally cant see the situation getting any better. The "cream" if you like, will no longer choose aviation as a career as it is no longer viable. {end of rant} lol.

I didnt realise Airbus' equalise the control inputs in alternate law, thats scary s*it.

[Spiffav8]

That's messed up. I knew about the sensor icing, but had never read the CVR transcripts.

I see this in two ways. The first being that Airbus takes the piloting out of their airplanes in a lot of ways. With the flight controls in manual and set to "Dual" the airplane averaging the two inputs is just stupid if you ask me. Airbus programs all kinds of funky logic (if you want to call it logic) into their aircraft. Is it unsafe? No. Manned by a well trained and experienced flight crew that understand how the aircraft thinks, works and knows the limitations, it's not a problem.

The second thing is the flight crew. It appears that an inexperienced pair where put together in what's called a "green on green" situation with no clear line of who was the PIC (Pilot in Command) while the Captain was resting. The airline is to blame for that. Both pilots failed to see the reality of the situation after the airspeed failure (obviously) and put the aircraft into a falling leaf type stall. Easy to get out of if you're paying attention. I'd bet that they where under the impression that the aircraft was having more than one type of failure and ignored the warnings as such. Basically, they didn't trust or believe what the instruments where telling them. The break down in basic CRM is unforgivable.

I can honestly say that in all my flying I have never seen this type of situation with flight crews. Not even in the SIM while training on all types on emergency's including that types of a stall. I should note that I am not type rated in any Airbus. Huge fan of Boeing though and have flown a few. The 757-200 being my favorite. I like to describe it as the ZR1 of airliners.

Greg & James....just stick to U.S. carriers and you're fine.

[Spiffav8]

Originally Posted by Steve1968LS2

Actually the second most senior pilot let the low guy keep command when the Captain left..

It's not a good idea to transfer control from one pilot to the other during an emergency. We actually train as "flying" and "non-flying" pilot for all scenarios. It's been proven that the transfer has caused more problems than it's solved.

[Spiffav8]

Originally Posted by Simmo

It's quite common for a Second Officer to have control of the aircraft (above a given altitude), but the chain of command is always Captain - First Officer - Second Officer. So the SO can "have the controls" (ie manipulate the aircraft) but the responsibility of the trajectory of the aircraft lies with the guy in the left seat (Captain or FO in this case). So here we have the Captain Dubois, FO Robert & SO Bonin in that order.

Bonin appears to have been so overloaded he's load shedded to the point that he is relying on ab initio skills to attempt to recover the aircraft. Scary stuff but it happens, even in experienced crew. The trick is to manage the situation so it doesnt get even close to that level of workload. In some parts of the world guys can be in that seat with little over a commercial pilots licence so its not surprising he was struggling.

As low cost carriers continue to dominate, and the bean counters continue to shave every margin (and people continue to fly low cost to save $3 and go without a biscuit) I personally cant see the situation getting any better. The "cream" if you like, will no longer choose aviation as a career as it is no longer viable. {end of rant} lol.

I didnt realise Airbus' equalise the control inputs in alternate law, thats scary s*it.

That's a very good rant. Sadly it's true.

[jon72vega]

That's a very interesting article.

[Beegs]

Originally Posted by Steve1968LS2

Actually the second most senior pilot let the low guy keep command when the Captain left..

I like how Boeing ties the controls together.. this "averaging" deal seems flawed.

SEEMS flawed? Holy crap....when I read that I about fell over!!!! I can't BELIEVE they are set up that way. If they had been synced...the reaction most likely would have been: "WTF are you pulling back so much for????"

I hope someone here can shed some light as to why being "averaged" is a good idea...

[Gandalf]

Yikes! Makes you want to slap someone but I'm not entirely sure who I'd start with! As someone who clocks up miles back and forth across the Pacific, I'm always concious that you are totally at the mercy of the crew, the conditions and the current state of the aircraft with few to no options if something goes wrong. Still scares the bejesus out of me and I'm fairly sure reading this doesn't help. An eye opener for sure.

G

[James OLC]

Originally Posted by Steve1968LS2

Actually the second most senior pilot let the low guy keep command when the Captain left..

I like how Boeing ties the controls together.. this "averaging" deal seems flawed.

Actually, the Captain left the most junior pilot in command when he left:

At approximately 2 am, the other co-pilot, David Robert, returns to the cockpit after a rest break. At 37, Robert is both older and more experienced than Bonin, with more than double his colleague's total flight hours. The head pilot gets up and gives him the left-hand seat. Despite the gap in seniority and experience, the captain leaves Bonin in charge of the controls

[James OLC]

Originally Posted by Spiffav8

Greg & James....just stick to U.S. carriers and you're fine.

I do when I can Curtis but from time to time I have to fly on a Caribbean carrier who does tend to make me a little bit nervous.

[Steve1968LS2]

Originally Posted by Spiffav8

It's not a good idea to transfer control from one pilot to the other during an emergency. We actually train as "flying" and "non-flying" pilot for all scenarios. It's been proven that the transfer has caused more problems than it's solved.

I meant when the Captain first left.. before the problems started.