whos using bagged suspension???

[Steve1968LS2]

Originally Posted by Teetoe_Jones

I have my doubts about the Shockwaves too. I just feel that air bags = sloppy handling. Looking through the brochure, you can see nearly every car on the track days have bad body roll. I don't see it as a true perormance option for track cars, or serious minded street cars, no matter how much marketing they dump on me.

Tyler

So you calling us fibbers??? lol



Over 46 MPH... :shrug:

Oh, I don't think it's designed for "track" cars.. just for street cars that may hit an open track event or two..

[sinned]

Not fibbers Steve but I didn't care for the way that article was written at all. It implied that the G28 already been set-up for serious street duty and handled a bit better by adding the air-ride when in fact the G28 had conventional crappy suspension so it was an apple to oranges comparison. I'm sure Air-Ride appreciated the free advertising though.

[Steve1968LS2]

Originally Posted by dennis68

Not fibbers Steve but I didn't care for the way that article was written at all. It implied that the G28 already been set-up for serious street duty and handled a bit better by adding the air-ride when in fact the G28 had conventional crappy suspension so it was an apple to oranges comparison. I'm sure Air-Ride appreciated the free advertising though.

How so? It's been VERY CLEARLY documented to anyone who cares to read what g/28 had prior to the Air Ride deal.. Maybe you miss that or maybe you screws with your argument.. either way.

g/28 had your standard low buck upgraded suspension. Hotchkis leafs, GW uppers, Hotchkis springs, poly bushings and some mediocer shocks. doesn't really matter cause in testing it did pretty good performance wise.. not earth shattering but not shabby.

We installed the Shockwave stuff and retested the car.. it did slightly better in the cones and the same in the skidpad.

See, this is why doing product testing is useless.. closed minded people won't care and if the results don't jive with what they have already decided then they will just say that cheating was done. So, what's the point? Why should any mfg. offer to have thier product tested?

Internet warrior: We want you to install products and put them to the test
Magazine: Ok, we did that and the results were xyz..
Internet warrior: Falsehoods!! Your just giving the advertisers a blow job

Nobody said it's the best thing in the world for handling.. just that it was installed and with almost no tweaking put down a respectable number..

But were just lying so disregard what I just said..

Note to Dennis: since you find it amusing to be so blunt I thought you would appreciate it in kind..

[Teetoe_Jones]

Good Christ. I didn't say this to start a pissing match between you two.
I'm not a beliver in air bag suspensions being very good for handling. I do agree that it improved the G/28 slightly through the cones. But I bet a good set of leafs and Bilstiens could have done the same if not better. I'd be willing to wager that G/28 on Button Willow will have lost a few seconds to the air bags.
Cool?
Yeah.
Handling?
Not so much.

Ask Marcus @ SC&C what happened to him when he started asking the hard questions at the Air Ride class.

Tyler

[sinned]

Steve, although you had previously done a fairly detailed break down of what was done during the whole build process, to someone picking up the mag for the first time just for the air bag write-up they might interpret the results different.

I don’t mind blunt at all, just be accurate please. If you’re going to attempt the verbal lashing, make sure your can back it up. In this case you claim that you made in very clear that

Originally Posted by steve

g/28 had your standard low buck upgraded suspension. Hotchkis leafs, GW uppers, Hotchkis springs, poly bushings and some mediocer shocks. doesn't really matter cause in testing it did pretty good performance wise.. not earth shattering but not shabby.

and

Originally Posted by steve

We installed the Shockwave stuff and retested the car.. it did slightly better in the cones and the same in the skidpad.

yet I find these quotes from the same article the air bag install was done for

Originally Posted by PHR

Keep in mind that our baseline weight already included dearched leaf springs, lighter control arms, lowering springs, and high-performance shocks

Indicating to me some fairly high performance equipment being used here. And again

Originally Posted by PHR

Right out of the gate, g/28 had bettered its best-ever slalom speed (46.2 mph) with the previous performance-oriented suspension.

Indicating a much improved handling chassis and again reference to the fact that the car had previously been outfitted with performance suspension.

At least this references that it is not a huge improvement

Originally Posted by PHR

While these runs look only marginally faster than our previous best, it should be noted that we got these numbers much easier this time, and the control of the car was vastly improved

but implies that results are deceiving and that the car really does handle quite a bit better.

Originally Posted by PHR

Considering how little tuning was done with the ride height, corner weights, and shock valving, we'd have to say the Air Ride suspension is marginally better right out of the box. There is more performance lurking inside the suspension-we just haven't spent the time to unlock it.

then this one lets the reader know that although it handles better out of the box, it has the potential for much more.

So you can see how looking at just the air bag article could lead one to believe that that the air bag was a pretty decent improvement over an already great handling G-machine (since you guys named it such it is fair to assume it must be a pretty good handling car).

Smack-down session over.

It’s not done for my amusement; it is my way of refusing to participate in the dumbing down or pussification of America. Sorry if you feel offended, well not really. You shouldn’t feel offended that I speak (or write) to you like an educated adult.

[Steve1968LS2]

Originally Posted by dennis68

Steve, although you had previously done a fairly detailed break down of what was done during the whole build process, to someone picking up the mag for the first time just for the air bag write-up they might interpret the results different.

Sigh.. yea.. guess we should have recapped the history of g/28 (I didn't name it).. Thought observant people would notice that it was a leaf sprung car. I suppose a more real world deal would be replacing a 3-link with an Air Bar...

I don’t mind blunt at all, just be accurate please. If you’re going to attempt the verbal lashing, make sure your can back it up. In this case you claim that you made in very clear that and yet I find these quotes from the same article the air bag install was done for
Indicating to me some fairly high performance equipment being used here. And again Indicating a much improved handling chassis and again reference to the fact that the car had previously been outfitted with performance suspension.

No verbal lashing.. just dispension with civility to make you feel more at home

It was outfitted with a very common performance suspension.. sorry if we didn't ask Dennis the alknowing if HE considered it so.. Or are you saying leaf sprung cars suck in general? Again, you conspiracy theory of some great deception is sorta weird. We took parts off, we put parts on, we tested the parts. If you don't like air bag stuff then don't buy it and certainly don't hate on the messenger.

At least this references that it is not a huge improvement but implies that results are deceiving and that the car really does handle quite a bit better.
then this one lets the reader know that although it handles better out of the box, it has the potential for much more.

Huge is relative term, Johnny drove the car and though it was a big improvement :shrug: .. an increase of 1mph in a short 420 foot course is big.. Johnny thought the car felt much more responsive to drive.. wanna come to CA and for the next track test.. you can drive it since it seems yours is the only opinion that can be taken at face value.. seriously.. what do you want? You really dislike air bag suspension and there was really zero way to make you happy with the story unless be ripped Air Ride a new one.

A quote from the story: "While these runs look only marginally faster than our previous best, it should be noted that we got these numbers much easier this time, and the control of the car was vastly improved."

So we note the fact the number are marginally better but point out that those number were easier to get.. We also note in the story that with some testing there might be a bit more performance to gain..

Also from the story: "Keep in mind that what we swapped out was not a stock suspension but an upgraded performance set-up that we had tweaked over the course of several track sessions. For detailed information on previous suspension installations and track test data, visit www.popularhotrodding.com.

We only say it was an "upgraded performance set-up" and that where someone can get detailed info.. so whats the problem with that?

So you can see how looking at just the air bag article could lead one to believe that that the air bag was a pretty decent improvement over an already great handling G-machine (since you guys named it such it is fair to assume it must be a pretty good handling car).

Not really.. I can see how someone could see what they want to see. What I DO see is that we posted baseline numbers on a well tested car.. we bolted on parts in only two days and retested then posted them numbers. Take from it what you will. To ask for product testing and then complain over minutia because you didn't like the results is sorta silly, but it's your right.

I know g/28 doesn't handle as well as your race car.. I guess we should run all cars by you to see if they qualify as a good handling car. Hey, what does a stock 4th gen Camaro or new Mustang run through the cones? Anyways, it's pointless to argue with you since your mind was made up before your first post. [/quote]

[qutoe]It’s not done for my amusement; it is my way of refusing to participate in the dumbing down or pussification of America. Sorry if you feel offended, well not really. You shouldn’t feel offended that I speak (or write) to you like an educated adult.[/QUOTE]

Wow, arn't we all lucky to have you here to save us.. lol.. I feel dumber just reading this thread, so who is going to save me from you???

So, anyone that likes Air Spring suspension is a pusy and has been "pussified"?? How manly of you to point that out.. lol -- you just don't get that MOST people don't go to the track.. they want a car that corners better than stock and is fun to drive around town. For those that want track whores there are much better choices like the TA, 3-link or whatever..

Not offended.. just amused how someone can take a simple product test and get so upset because we didn't run it by them for approval. The numbers are the numbers and if don't like them then I really don't know what to tell you.. Next time your in CA I can arrange for you to drive g/28 through the cones if you promise not to hit too many of them.. (don't wanna scuff up that nice paint.. lol)

Again, not offended or mad.. that's just stupid on the internet. Although you did imply a certain lack of integrity on my part.. I just tend to respond in the style of the person I am communicating to. You know I generally respect your opinion even if I don't agree. I just think you are injecting way too much drama into a simple product test.

[Steve1968LS2]

Originally Posted by Teetoe_Jones

Good Christ. I didn't say this to start a pissing match between you two.
I'm not a beliver in air bag suspensions being very good for handling. I do agree that it improved the G/28 slightly through the cones. But I bet a good set of leafs and Bilstiens could have done the same if not better. I'd be willing to wager that G/28 on Button Willow will have lost a few seconds to the air bags.
Cool?
Yeah.
Handling?
Not so much.

Ask Marcus @ SC&C what happened to him when he started asking the hard questions at the Air Ride class.

Tyler

It's ok.. Dennis and I enjoy going round and round from time to time.. keeps us sharp and on our toes .. he's good in my book (even if he does need social skills.. lol)

Had good leafs but better shocks could have most likely make g/28 just as fast through the cones as the expensive Air Bar system.. We were NOT trying to show that the Air Bar deal was the hottest racecar setup out there.. or even a race oriented deal at all.

I think what we did show is that if you wanna be able to "lay frame" and have the coolness factor (if your into that) of an air spring system then you don't have to throw performance of any type out the window. Will you be as fast as a nice 3-link, Quadra-link or TA?? No.. but your car will not be dangerous to drive aroud a curve at over 5 mph.

It's no secret that the ART guys are not good at answering theoretical technical questions about the laws of physics.. then again we don't drive pieces of paper and formulas scibbled down. We drive cars, so I think I will stick with real world testing.

ART is not for everyone.. then again not everyone gives a crap if they can go around Willow Springs 4 seconds faster than the next guy.

And it did knock 80lbs off the car..

Anyways Tyler.. don't sweat it..

[Steve1968LS2]

"Keep in mind that our baseline weight already included dearched leaf springs, lighter control arms, lowering springs, and high-performance shocks"

yea? I know they weren't Bilsteins but they were better than stock KYB's...

Hotchkis leags
GW Control Arms
Hotchkis springs

Yea?..

And if does have potential for more.. with some time on the corner scales it could be dialed in better.. we had two hours to tune the suspension.. or do you not believe in suspension tuning???? Have you driven the car? If not than how the heck do you know if the car feels better or not through the cones?? Johnny thought the car felt quite a bit better, more predictable and more stable than it did before.. sorry if you don't like his opinion of a car you have never driven.

[sinned]

I never even mentioned that I arguing Jonny’s opinion of how the car felt or made reference to the fact that I had even seen the car, we all know I have not driven it.

This was not an attack on credibility at all and my opening post does not reference that in any way, if anything it was attack on your writing skills and your ability to let the reader know the real world results. Although your before and aft times are published the verbage you chose to describe the before chassis in this thread and in that article don't jive. Here you describe it as it so-so everyday suspension, while the article describes it as "high performance", and "performance-oriented".

Wow, arn't we all lucky to have you here to save us.. lol.. I feel dumber just reading this thread

So, anyone that likes Air Spring suspension is a pusy and has been "pussified"?? How manly of you to point that out

Dumbing down or pussification in no way refers to air bags, this thread , or you. They refer to the way people treat each other as a whole. Would you rather I had simply stated "wow, great job Steve. You guys have a great magazine and no one should ever question you or your articles"? I’m sure your sarcastic reply will imply that there is a nicer way of stating my opinion but I ask, why should anyone have to go through the trouble to throw in a few dozen extra verbs on the off chance someone might take offense otherwise?

Let’s be honest Steve, I highly doubt you have really felt “dumber” by reading anything I have posted.

[Steve1968LS2]

Originally Posted by dennis68

Dumbing down or pussification in no way refers to air bags, this thread , or you. They refer to the way people treat each other as a whole. Would you rather I had simply stated "wow, great job Steve. You guys have a great magazine and no one should ever question you or your articles"? .

Well, I took it that way.. and it sounded that way :shrug:

No, I like discussion and debate. I have 10,000 posts on ls2.com in the politics section so I am not against having differences of opinion.

What I don't really like is implications that I am somehow dishonest and paid off by a mfg (the appreciated the free advertising comment).

People wanted a product tested with before and after data and that's what they got.