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Originally Posted by Ron in SoCal
Having said that, you cannot universally translate transactional Ts & Cs from one industry to the next. It may work in some instances and not in others. A great example - all respect Chad - is dis-incentives. In my business we will not construct nor agree to any contract that gives the customer a right not to pay us. It's hard enough to get our customers to honor our invoices in a timely manner even when all goes perfect. We deal in IP though, not hard goods.
Most custom motor builders are small businesses. They do not have this level of product nor bulk inventory sitting on the shelf waiting for you to come along, so they'll want to be reimbursed for the parts invested. They aren't banks nor made of cash so that would be a reasonable request of them. Then there's the time involved to produce your motor so it will live. That takes care and talent. Some may agree to this payment schedule, some may not. He has to put food on the table as well.
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I don't disagree with you Ron for the most part. I do agree that my original comment about backing out on the order after a lot of time and money expended by the vendor is pushing it and unreasonable, I still think there needs to be consequences to not living up to commitments. This whole game that "I'm THE GUY for this so you will get what I give you, when I give it to you" that runs rampant in this hobby has got to stop somehow.
If these engine guys are as good as they say they are, then they know how long it takes to provide the level of service they commit too. As long as the payment schedule is fair and based on known lead times, I don't think it is unreasonable to request.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparks67
Most engine builders are at the hands of the manufacturers. So, you start ordering custom pistons, custom rods, etc. Be prepared to wait, because all manufacturers have adopted Just-in-time manufacturing methods. The supplier doesn't have the items in stock, so it has to be built. My Harrop TVS 2300 supercharger only took 3 weeks to acquire, but custom pistons and custom rods took months. I have talked to other custom engine builders, and they all seem to have the same problem with acquiring custom pistons. Also, be careful on what you are buying, because now only few companies are building crankshafts & rods in the USA.  Majority of the parts now are coming from overseas.
Jeff |
Jeff, while I understand where you are coming from, most of what you point out is usually propaganda businesses that can't meet their commitments use to make excuses. It is a fact that inventory costs money and most small businesses can not afford to have a lot of money tied up in stock. However, it still comes down to managing a project correctly and quoting based on facts. If a particular engine combination uses custom parts than the builder should get firm delivery quotes for those parts before the customer is quoted cost and delivery. These delivery quotes can then be retained so that when an order is placed if there are delays this information can be presented to the customer to help them understand what the delays are. Unfortunately it happens all too often that some folks that are experts at some service or skill are not always capable business people or project managers.
The whole "just in time" manufacturing thing also raises my blood pressure. It has become a buzz word for "It's not our fault". Most small businesses that say they have adopted this process have no idea what it is all about. Not having stock on the shelves and ordering every part needed for each project is NOT "just in time" manufacturing. This process is built on statistical data for each component and supplier so that a forecast schedule can be developed so that orders are placed automatically. These orders are placed so that the parts arrive in the facility "just in time" for the process to continue WITHOUT delays. In most cases this type of process is not suited to custom one off projects that require different components every time. It is meant to streamline a high volume production line.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt.A
I tend to agree with others that a contract may scare off a good engine builder. It might send up a red flag to the builder that you could be a one of those "difficult" customers, and passing on the job would just be simpler for them. I am also of the opinion though that if you feel you need a contract, you should probably find someone that you are comfortable enough with to not deem a contract is a necessary. That is just the way I prefer to work though. I like to get word of mouth referrals and visit a shop at least twice before I commit to dropping a big chunk of change. If you schedule an appointment, get the tour, then drop in a month later to see how all of the various projects have progressed, then you start to get a sense of the pacing and flow of the work going through the shop.
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If a mutually beneficial contract scares a vendor off, i would say so be it. It really scares me that when all you expect is to get what you asked for, when you asked for it, for what you agreed to pay for it, you are "One of those DIFFICULT customers". I much prefer to work the way you stated Matt. There was a time when this was the only way to do business. But, unfortunately it is getting to be all to common, especially in this hobby that vendors AND customers are becoming untrustworthy. I think word of mouth is critical in making decisions like these, but not full proof. I speak from experience. We almost spent 15K on an engine through Prodigy based on all kinds of recommendations. But, I guess we were lucky in that he neglected to return many phone calls which gave us a bad feeling. In the end we passed on that deal and feel very lucky that we did. But, up to that point I had not heard one bad thing about them. 6 months later the you know what hit the fan. If we would have moved forward, this would have been an excellent situation for a contract.
I work for an OEM manufacturer of heavy industrial equipment. We are somewhat unique in that we don't do any manufacturing in house. We contract manufacture 100% of our goods. Our business does 15-17 million a year with projects that range from 2000 to 1.5 million. We have to make commitments to our customers for every one of them and we are completely dependent on our vendors to live up to these commitments. We have a 97% on time rate and when we are going to be late we are in constant communication with our customers to try and help reduce the impact on them. And don't think we are a huge company with unlimited resources. We do all this with 14 people. Before we quote a customer, we know what items are going to be long lead items and we get firm commitments from the vendors for those parts. If on the odd occasion we cannot get a firm commitment, this is presented to the customer up front so that they can decide if this level of uncertainty is acceptable. There is no reason that any engine builder could not do the same thing.
It is time for things to start changing and people stop accepting poor service as "it's just how it is in this hobby". Contracts may not be the answer, but someone has to try something or nothing will change.
OK, I've got my nomex on let the flaming and flogging begin!
Brian Hobaugh SCCA National Tour June 2014
First Hemi 'Cuda Convertible Ever Built
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