Which aftermarket Subframe

[GregWeld]

All of these "choices" are good.... but it really comes down to wallet size... and how much performance (i.e, how competitive do you really want to be) you think you can crank out.

Driver is the bigger factor by a factor of 10 when it comes to "performance". You can buy all the parts you want - and some gal or guy puts the spank on you and they do it with a stock sub frame and monroe shocks and drum brakes.

I've installed the Art Morrison chassis...Art is a friend and it's local here to me. It worked fantastically.

I've installed Art Morrison rear end kits... Stuff worked and performed fantastically,

I've installed TCI front subframe and it works fantastically -- looked correct for the install.. was well built. And they actually do race their cars with their stuff... Sal is at most all of the big events that Lat G'rs follow and he's always right up there in the standings.

SpeedTech's stuff works fantastically - is well built - is now here in the USA... and their performance at events is usually in the top 5 or 10 if not higher.

What you're going to find with these Subs is that it's probably going to be much more about the total of the components you're choosing... headers - steering racks - placement - etc. They all attach to the same factory locations.... so they aren't going to add stiffness to the entire car unless you start to build in cages and down bars etc. which is what I'd do regardless of which sub you choose.

For a street driven car -- there are suspension specs that need to be considered in order to make it drivable... the track is a completely different spec if you really want to be dialed in... so make sure those specs are doable in your sub and how easy are they doable if you're the kind of guy that wants to make changes like that.

Also -- what size tire can you get under the car -- and which sub will accommodate that choice. Some subs are pinched up front to allow a far larger tire choice. You'd be plenty pissed if you chose a sub that won't work with the tire wheel combo you're thinking about.

People mention Scott's sub -- they're talking about Scott Mock.

Don't forget there's also Chris Alston and his race stuff... they don't just build drag race stuff anymore. All of the suspension on my race Mustang is from their TCP division. Here's just one example of a new product they have out. http://www.cachassisworks.com/cac_pr...-69Camaro.html

There's so many choices out there -- and my feeling is you can't go wrong with any of them --- but it's a combo deal. The combo of everything you're going to choose and how it's all put together.... and the combo of your wallet size and your desire to go how far with the build.

If you just want a better handling car up front - you could just do the Guldstrand mod.. but you want rack and pinion... and to me - that's a good choice. Rack and pinion isn't just the handling it's about the clearance issue of not having the steering box cranked up against the driver side header.

This "best sub" argument (discussion) is like asking which tire is best... best for what... can you drive to the tires limits? More importantly - can you catch the car if you drive over the tires limits! Whats the trade offs - noisy - wears out quickly - costs a fortune - won't work in the wet... size for the wheel you want to run.... There's so many good choices.... but there's so many tradeoffs that have to be considered. For my Lotus 2 Eleven - I have three sets of wheels with three different sets of tires mounted up... People aren't going to do that for a "street car" and one or two auto X events per year... And there are people that can blow thru a complete set of tires at one event... so are you prepared to buy another $1500 or $2000 set of tires a year? Depends on which tire you choose and how competitive you want to be.

So think about the sub -- the motor choice - header availability - oil pans - tire and wheel combo - sub frame connectors - bolt in or weld in? There's all these things to consider that are probably every bit as important to the overall choice.

[jwcarguy]

Originally Posted by GregWeld

All of these "choices" are good.... but it really comes down to wallet size... and how much performance (i.e, how competitive do you really want to be) you think you can crank out.

Driver is the bigger factor by a factor of 10 when it comes to "performance". You can buy all the parts you want - and some gal or guy puts the spank on you and they do it with a stock sub frame and monroe shocks and drum brakes.

I've installed the Art Morrison chassis...Art is a friend and it's local here to me. It worked fantastically.

I've installed Art Morrison rear end kits... Stuff worked and performed fantastically,

I've installed TCI front subframe and it works fantastically -- looked correct for the install.. was well built. And they actually do race their cars with their stuff... Sal is at most all of the big events that Lat G'rs follow and he's always right up there in the standings.

SpeedTech's stuff works fantastically - is well built - is now here in the USA... and their performance at events is usually in the top 5 or 10 if not higher.

What you're going to find with these Subs is that it's probably going to be much more about the total of the components you're choosing... headers - steering racks - placement - etc. They all attach to the same factory locations.... so they aren't going to add stiffness to the entire car unless you start to build in cages and down bars etc. which is what I'd do regardless of which sub you choose.

For a street driven car -- there are suspension specs that need to be considered in order to make it drivable... the track is a completely different spec if you really want to be dialed in... so make sure those specs are doable in your sub and how easy are they doable if you're the kind of guy that wants to make changes like that.

Also -- what size tire can you get under the car -- and which sub will accommodate that choice. Some subs are pinched up front to allow a far larger tire choice. You'd be plenty pissed if you chose a sub that won't work with the tire wheel combo you're thinking about.

People mention Scott's sub -- they're talking about Scott Mock.

Don't forget there's also Chris Alston and his race stuff... they don't just build drag race stuff anymore. All of the suspension on my race Mustang is from their TCP division. Here's just one example of a new product they have out. http://www.cachassisworks.com/cac_pr...-69Camaro.html

There's so many choices out there -- and my feeling is you can't go wrong with any of them --- but it's a combo deal. The combo of everything you're going to choose and how it's all put together.... and the combo of your wallet size and your desire to go how far with the build.

If you just want a better handling car up front - you could just do the Guldstrand mod.. but you want rack and pinion... and to me - that's a good choice. Rack and pinion isn't just the handling it's about the clearance issue of not having the steering box cranked up against the driver side header.

This "best sub" argument (discussion) is like asking which tire is best... best for what... can you drive to the tires limits? More importantly - can you catch the car if you drive over the tires limits! Whats the trade offs - noisy - wears out quickly - costs a fortune - won't work in the wet... size for the wheel you want to run.... There's so many good choices.... but there's so many tradeoffs that have to be considered. For my Lotus 2 Eleven - I have three sets of wheels with three different sets of tires mounted up... People aren't going to do that for a "street car" and one or two auto X events per year... And there are people that can blow thru a complete set of tires at one event... so are you prepared to buy another $1500 or $2000 set of tires a year? Depends on which tire you choose and how competitive you want to be.

So think about the sub -- the motor choice - header availability - oil pans - tire and wheel combo - sub frame connectors - bolt in or weld in? There's all these things to consider that are probably every bit as important to the overall choice.

Very well stated!!

[Tony@Roadster]

Originally Posted by HBRod

New guy question. I have spent about two weeks reading as many of the various posts as I could find relating to my question but couldn’t get enough information to form a clear choice. I have a plan to build a 69 Camaro in the pro-touring style (though I’m old enough to still think of them as streetable Trans-Am cars from the 60-70’s). Currently considering Speedtech, AME, DSE – are there others I should be looking at? The big Question is – which aftermarket front subframe? I do want to go to an aftermarket subframe to get:

1. Better suspension geometry
2. Rack and pinion steering (powered) – must be front steer not rear steer
3. Sway selection beyond a 1 size fits all

Still to be decided are:

1. Brake size – 13” or 14”
2. Coil over’s or Air suspension – I want some ride comfort and a reasonable amount of suspension travel (based on reading David Pozzi’s site and the threads here)

So if you have an aftermarket subframe please let me know why you chose what you have. And please let’s hear the positives about what you have or favor rather than what the others lack. I believe that there are lots of horses in the race but that the jockey (aka driver) is the true difference in who is the winner.

P.S. – Saw references to a Scott Mock subframe but when I searched the Internet couldn’t find any information about it. Just postings hear on Lateral-G and Pro-Touring.com.

Our Fast Track front subframe will accomplish everything you are wanting a subframe to do.
* Aggressive modern suspension geometry which is compliant to provide excellent ride quality and handling.

* Air Ride / Coil Overs: RS Penske Coil Over is standard equipment but we can have it fitted to be able to accept the RideTech Shockwaves. ( You will need to let us know at time of order because we need to do some special clearance work for the Shockwaves)

* Power Rack is standard equipment

* Sway Bar:We use a splined sway bar as standard equipment for all our Fast Track front suspensions. The standard bar is 1.25" and we connect to the control arms with a Corvette end link to retain positive engagement with the arm.

* Brakes: Baer, Wilwood and Brembo offer brake kits for our front end. Being that we use a modified C6 spindle.... just about any manufacturer would make a kit that would work.

Obviously there are a lot more features and benefits here than your specific needs that I addressed. For more info on the subframe you can check it out here http://roadstershop.com/suspension/1967-69-camaro/ .




Tony....

[HBRod]

Sorry, been tied up for a few days. I don't have the car yet. Came close twice, one was miss-represented and deal fell apart. The other got outbid. Thank you to all who have responded. Your comments are great. Especially about the combo factor. I have been working on a plan for about a year now and want to get started on this project. Not getting any younger.

I have a plan to do the car with both front/rear suspension changes (leafs no thank you), an LSx engine, 6spd, 9" rear. And I have a lot of catching up to do regarding driving skills for autox and beyond. I was hoping to hear what worked for members of this site for them and what they liked about their choice. There are a great number of choices (sorry I didn't mention Roadster Shop initially) and I wanted to hear experiences with subframe choices. I feel that since I need to improve my driving skills I want to have the car be better handling than I am capable of driving currently. I want to grow into it so to speak. Like having the right tools for the job, starting with a good foundation will allow me to improve my skill set without trying to make major changes to the car once it's on the road. Then, should I get better and feel the need to make chassis changes I'll have a better basis for what will be next.

But thanks to all of you for your feedback. Between this and scouring both this website and a few others I have been learning.

[Spiffav8]

Originally Posted by HBRod

I feel that since I need to improve my driving skills I want to have the car be better handling than I am capable of driving currently. I want to grow into it so to speak. Like having the right tools for the job, starting with a good foundation will allow me to improve my skill set without trying to make major changes to the car once it's on the road. Then, should I get better and feel the need to make chassis changes I'll have a better basis for what will be next..

Up till about a year ago I rode dirt bikes. Ton of fun! When I first started looking to buy a bike, I was like you. Which one is the best? It took me awhile to realize they are all basically the same and totally different at the same time. lol Like suspension, you can't just go out and test drive them all. So you're kind of in the unknown zone and very dependent on the opinion of others. Tough place to be when trying to make an expensive decision. It's a gamble for sure. My suggestion is while you are searching for the right car, head out to as many events, that have an autocross, as possible. Take a decent helmet with you and ask people if you can ride along. Ride is everything you can....AND I MEAN EVERYTHING!!! After awhile you'll start to see the differences between the mild and wild suspension setups. (try not to look so much at the car) Don't focus on just one car. Get info on setups and find the commonality amongst them for those you are impressed with. It's a fun way to get a feel for what's right for you and make a few new friends along the way.

Something else to keep in mind is that these cars are anything but cheap to build. I suggest putting a build sheet together now. Every item you can think of right down to the smallest bling. Then start pricing everything out. It's a pain in the butt, but....it will save you a lot of money and headache in the long run. You may find balance in ways you haven't thought of yet.

[Chassisworks]

Originally Posted by HBRod

New guy question. I have spent about two weeks reading as many of the various posts as I could find relating to my question but couldn’t get enough information to form a clear choice. I have a plan to build a 69 Camaro in the pro-touring style (though I’m old enough to still think of them as streetable Trans-Am cars from the 60-70’s). The big Question is – which aftermarket front subframe? I do want to go to an aftermarket subframe to get:

1. Better suspension geometry
2. Rack and pinion steering (powered) – must be front steer not rear steer
3. Sway selection beyond a 1 size fits all

Still to be decided are:

1. Brake size – 13” or 14”
2. Coil over’s or Air suspension – I want some ride comfort and a reasonable amount of suspension travel (based on reading David Pozzi’s site and the threads here)

HBRod, first, Welcome to Lateral-g! This site can be a great place to meet new people.

Our front clip definitely meets all of the criteria you have posted above. It was designed from a 'clean sheet' and is manufactured completely in house at our Sacramento, CA factory. There are two different spindle/upright options for street cars, four different coilover shock options (plus two air options), set rate or adjustable splined anti-roll bars, and a plethora of options to fine tune a system that's right for you. We also have a complete rear suspension system and subframe connectors to tie it all together.

You can find a quick run-down on the front end HERE and go into more detail with the buyers guide available HERE.

Based on what you describe, it sounds like you want a car very similar to THIS ONE.

Originally Posted by GregWeld

Don't forget there's also Chris Alston and his race stuff... they don't just build drag race stuff anymore. All of the suspension on my race Mustang is from their TCP division. Here's just one example of a new product they have out. http://www.cachassisworks.com/cac_pr...-69Camaro.html

Thanks for putting in a good word, Greg! Glad to hear that you are enjoying your Mustang.

Many people aren't aware that Chris Alston has been involved with handling style race cars for a long time; he actually built Trans-Am cars for his brothers all the way back in the 70s!

[Vegas69]

Put 7500 street miles and 25+ events on my DSE subframe. I wouldn't hesitate to go this direction again. My only criticism is the reduced turning radius for the larger front tire. I think they could have designed it to keep the stock radius with some frame recess. It would be a nice option. Car rode and performed great. In fact, that car rode better than any car I've ever owned. Including three 5 series BMW's, Audi S4, Corvette, Infiniti G35, etc.. It's a hefty price but the engineering is there.

My opinion is the carpet has to match the drapes with these builds. Curtis gave you some solid advice. Plan the build, then spend your money.

[HBRod]

Thanks Curtis and Greg, been thinking about what you have said about the differences and making the plan. I've been working on a spreadsheet to list out the things I want and the things I need in the car. Keeps getting longer and longer as I am sure all of you know. But am trying to be as thorough as possible. After reading Stielow's book (where he also recommends doing this) I am starting to get a better handle on project. So far I've only read about 45 project builds (some much longer than others) and I know my basic direction. Since I was a kid I truly admired Mark Donohue and the Penske Camaros. That is what initially pushed me into SCCA Solo racing when I was 20. Hence my interest in Pro-Touring since it's the closest I can get to driving something similar to the Trans Am cars of my youth. I want the car to look nice but not a show car. Bling at times is nice, but instead of spending money on chrome I want safety, handling, speed. Some bling is okay if it's not to the detriment of those goals. I am looking at the subframe, frame connectors, and rear suspension as the building blocks for everything else. Goal one is solid bones, which means a solid body (zero rust if possible) and suspension. I can always upgrade the engine more easily than the rest of the car. Same with transmission. So trying to set priorities on the list is both challenging and fun.

[Matt@BOS]

For front steer rack and pinion subframes I would give preference to DSE and AME, although, I've never had a Scott Mock frame, or one from the Roadster shop either, but they both look nice. I don't think you can go wrong with any of the above. It is only when you get down to really nuanced details associated with handling characteristics in a racing environment that you might favor one over the other based on what your preferences for geometry are.

Fit and finish with DSE and AME is great, and they pretty much work without having to modify anything to fit, or correct certain geometry issues that would be difficult to align, or cause wheels be off centered and rub in the wheel well, which I've seen on a few aftermarket frames here and there.

[Z06vette]

I've read this thread with interest as I have been struggling with the idea of replacing my subframe during an upcoming motor/trans swap. I like the feedback as I also prefer front steer w/ rack. (I'm currently running Wayne Due). Maybe we could get a group purchase going... I'm looking forward to following your upcoming build. I enjoy the build almost as much as running the autocross.
Scott