Yet another 2nd Gen Camaro - Project/update

[CURVES]

Nice!

New desktop until mine is worthy.

[gerno]

Originally Posted by CURVES

Nice!

New desktop until mine is worthy.

Thank, that's a great compliment

Originally Posted by Vince@MSperfab

finally a full frontal!! Looks great man.

I hope you can just off set the upper shaft. That would be the easiest option.

I wonder if the support rolled in a bit when it was cut and rewelded. We usually cross brace the hell out of that when we modify them. Ive seen a bunch under pressure when you cut the top.

There is an angled support on the car so I wouldn't have thought it would move but you should know more than me. Worse case I'm thinking I can use a cut off wheel to slice the support, push it forward and weld it up. This is by far the worse case. I'm hoping Blake simply has a solution for me since they know more of the complete engineering up the setup than I do.

[gerno]

I spoke to Jay and Blake for a bit yesterday and today. In general we are a bit stumped with the issue. We compared measurements with Jay's car in the shop. Overall the front UCA mount is the same measurement as Jay's car and to the factory specs. I had to measure from the engine side of the cross shaft since the car is together. Measurement was 28 3/4. Factory mount to mount is 30 5/8" and each cross shaft is .900" which equates to a .075" delta with rough measurements.

We also compared the ball join center to the cross shaft and came up with the same measurements. So it seems they are the correct arms/shafts. Blake is sending me more measurements to verify the arms are correct. He doesn't believe the arms are the issue.

Blake thinks something is wrong with the frame itself but we are both not sure where or why. He's concludes this since he has installed this setup on multiple cars without issue. The odd thing is that I have ~1/2" rear shims and 0 on the front while other cars he's build have 1/8" front and rear to get the setup.

Basically the solution we came up with is to cut the UCA support and push it outward ~1/4" then weld it back together so I can move the UCA out to add static camber. Other option is to raise the ride height or the control arm in the slotted mounts. Both of these can't be done because if the arms are raised I lose camber gain and because the ride height looks perfect as is...

I might also call around for a farm shop to get them to check the chassis just to make sure nothing is bent that I'm not aware of.

[syborg tt]

This car stuff is sure a pain in the butt sometimes. But I agree you can't change the stance it looks perfect.

[WSSix]

Is the subframe squared to the car?

[gerno]

Originally Posted by WSSix

Is the subframe squared to the car?

From the measurements I took it appears to be within a very close tolerance.

[rickpaw]

The car's stance is perfect. Good luck sorting out the issues.

Tu

[MX145]

Not sure if this helps but I had similar issues with my 68 subframe when I went to align the car. I'm running DSE parts but ran into the same situation. The factory tolerances apparently have a wide range. (Beyond 1/8", at least on a Friday). DSE uses a jig that mounts to the motor mount locations and the UCA mounts bolt to it to positively locate them for welding in place. The jig didn't want to sit in the car properly. It was raised up off the crossmember. I had to shim up the jig with multiple shims and slot the motor mount holes just to get the jig mounted. I made sure to keep the jig level and used the same number of shims and hole offset on both sides. DSE told me they haven't run into this before. I noticed the car was heavily shimmed on one side when I bought it but thought something in the ams on that side was bent from a previous owner accident. The frame itself measured out to the GM specs and measured square. Turns out my UCA mounts were off a 1/16 on one side and 3/16 on the other totaling a 1/4" difference between the two. The factory UCA locations were off as well as the crossmember itself wasn't centered. I couldn't get negative camber on one side and the other was in range. The 3/16 on the bad side had a huge impact on the static camber. I thought about machining down the UCA shaft as well but I didn't want to modify a good part to make up for another one out of spec. I would have had to take way too much off anyway so I bit the bullet and cut the UCA mount out and moved it to match the other side. I had to move it approx 3/16. I tacked and measured and checked hub angle what seemed like 20 times making sure my UCA mount height stayed in place and the camber matched with the same number of shims as the good side. This probably goes without saying but the mount can pull on you from the heat tipping it in or out so I went back and forth on my root pass to get it stable constantly checking before the final weld. Maybe both of our sub frames came from the same guy on the assembly line. He must not have built too many of them.

[GregWeld]

This is NOT YOUR issue -- but just saying that these old pigs have a lot of history and can be as wonky as you know what!


I had to make this "body shim" just to get the TCI subframe to bolt up to the car --- because the body had been hit in the driver front. The alignment came out perfect -- but I measure everything to the nth degree and have done this kind of work many times. I call this "cut to cure" hot rodding.



I cut this 1/2" plate and then milled it to the actual dimension (thickness) I needed.... Thank gawd I had the tools and materials to do this kind of work!!

[gerno]

Originally Posted by syborg tt

This car stuff is sure a pain in the butt sometimes. But I agree you can't change the stance it looks perfect.

Originally Posted by rickpaw

The car's stance is perfect. Good luck sorting out the issues.

Tu

I agree there is no possibility to change the stance...

Originally Posted by MX145

Not sure if this helps but I had similar issues with my 68 subframe when I went to align the car. I'm running DSE parts but ran into the same situation. The factory tolerances apparently have a wide range. (Beyond 1/8", at least on a Friday). DSE uses a jig that mounts to the motor mount locations and the UCA mounts bolt to it to positively locate them for welding in place. The jig didn't want to sit in the car properly. It was raised up off the crossmember. I had to shim up the jig with multiple shims and slot the motor mount holes just to get the jig mounted. I made sure to keep the jig level and used the same number of shims and hole offset on both sides. DSE told me they haven't run into this before. I noticed the car was heavily shimmed on one side when I bought it but thought something in the ams on that side was bent from a previous owner accident. The frame itself measured out to the GM specs and measured square. Turns out my UCA mounts were off a 1/16 on one side and 3/16 on the other totaling a 1/4" difference between the two. The factory UCA locations were off as well as the crossmember itself wasn't centered. I couldn't get negative camber on one side and the other was in range. The 3/16 on the bad side had a huge impact on the static camber. I thought about machining down the UCA shaft as well but I didn't want to modify a good part to make up for another one out of spec. I would have had to take way too much off anyway so I bit the bullet and cut the UCA mount out and moved it to match the other side. I had to move it approx 3/16. I tacked and measured and checked hub angle what seemed like 20 times making sure my UCA mount height stayed in place and the camber matched with the same number of shims as the good side. This probably goes without saying but the mount can pull on you from the heat tipping it in or out so I went back and forth on my root pass to get it stable constantly checking before the final weld. Maybe both of our sub frames came from the same guy on the assembly line. He must not have built too many of them.

This is good to know. My issue does seem exactly like yours. Guess we are both lucky... I'm pretty sure I'll be taking the same actions you did but might head to a frame shop first just in case..

Originally Posted by GregWeld

This is NOT YOUR issue -- but just saying that these old pigs have a lot of history and can be as wonky as you know what!


I had to make this "body shim" just to get the TCI subframe to bolt up to the car --- because the body had been hit in the driver front. The alignment came out perfect -- but I measure everything to the nth degree and have done this kind of work many times. I call this "cut to cure" hot rodding.



I cut this 1/2" plate and then milled it to the actual dimension (thickness) I needed.... Thank gawd I had the tools and materials to do this kind of work!!

That's one hell of a body shim....





Today the weather was perfect so I took the car to the office. The engine tune is still not perfect due to my computer crashing and changing the intake/injectors but getting better. Overall the car was a lot of fun to drive. The turn in and rear grip in the corners was so much better. With the leafs the car was a little jittery (for lack of better words) and now it feels smooth and confident. The also rattles much less than it used to. I do need to add 1 more exhaust mount near the front but overall it work well. Even the interior panels didn't rattle nearly as much as i thought.

I'm anxious to see how the grip changes once the tires scrub off. As of now I was roasting the tires leaving lights pretty good even without pushing it all the way

I'm not too fond of the new exhaust tone at lower RPMs but I'm hoping the tune is causing it though it might also be removing he x pipe. It won't kill me with the current sound but was off to hear a difference.