Auto Power Industries/DSE/Tiger Cage

[sik68]

Originally Posted by Ron Sutton

The sport of Pro Touring … where drivers compete in AutoX, real road courses & fast events like the Silver State Challenge … are just asking for someone to get killed or disabled … because there are less rules. Don’t let the lack of rules guide your safety.

Originally Posted by Flash68

Could not agree more Ron.

I second DG; what a quote.

[Chassisworks]

Originally Posted by NorCal72

Its going in a gen II Camaro. Thanks in advance for the feedback.

If I can throw our name in the hat here, you might consider checking out the Chassisworks options. Chris Alston has been designing, installing, and manufacturing safety devices since the '70s. He created the first NHRA legal door swingout. Chris was on the safety board that BECAME the SFI Foundation board, and is still involved from time to time. So, we know a little about building cages.

We are going to be making an Exact-Fit cage for the second gen Camaro. If you're in NorCal and looking to have someone install a cage in your car, you might check out THIS LINK then give me a call. Exact-Fit cages are available in 1-5/8" ERW and 4130, or 1-3/4" ERW or DOM. Roll bars are available in 1-3/4" ERW.

It will fit like the image below, only in a different body. Currently, we are working on the 67-68 Mustang version. Whatever car shows up next that wants one is what we will build.

Carl

[Ron Sutton]

Carl,

You mentioned cages available in 1-5/8" ERW and 4130, or 1-3/4" ERW or DOM. Can someone custom order a 1-3/4" 4130 cage?

Same question for the Roll bars, available in 1-3/4" ERW. Can someone custom order a 1-3/4" 4130 roll bar?

.

[Chassisworks]

Originally Posted by Ron Sutton

Carl,

You mentioned cages available in 1-5/8" ERW and 4130, or 1-3/4" ERW or DOM. Can someone custom order a 1-3/4" 4130 cage?

Same question for the Roll bars, available in 1-3/4" ERW. Can someone custom order a 1-3/4" 4130 roll bar?

Hi Ron,
My instinct is to say 'no' but it would really depend on the wall thickness.

We don't have a mandrel to bend 1-3/4 x .083 and therefore don't stock the material. If a different wall thickness was required, say .120, then we could probably make it. This is one of those 'anything is possible if you're willing to pay for it' situations.

If you have a specific project in mind, use the Batphone and talk to Chris.

[Ron Sutton]

Originally Posted by Chassisworks

Hi Ron,
My instinct is to say 'no' but it would really depend on the wall thickness.

We don't have a mandrel to bend 1-3/4 x .083 and therefore don't stock the material. If a different wall thickness was required, say .120, then we could probably make it. This is one of those 'anything is possible if you're willing to pay for it' situations.

If you have a specific project in mind, use the Batphone and talk to Chris.

My Batphone is out for repair.
I enjoyed talking to Chris the other day & catching up. You guys have some cool stuff going on.


I asked ... because I feel more safety is needed in the PT world. Like I said in post #10 of this thread ...

In race cars, I’ve been on fire, been upside down at 177 mph, hit walls so hard I’m lucky to be alive & broke my back in 1991 … almost didn’t walk again. This stuff is serious.

If guys are building PT cars to be like race cars … and drive them hard in race situations … then they need plan for race level safety measures. The sport of Pro Touring … where drivers compete on some fast AutoX tracks other than GG, fast 2+ mile road courses & high speed events like the Silver State Challenge … are just asking for someone to get killed or disabled … because there are less rules.

Don’t let the lack of rules guide your safety decisions.

I'm not in my car. I don't care what the rules are. I designed it to protect me, my buddies Mike Maier & Benny Moon that will compete in it some and my daughter Nikki when she & I run Silver State.

The PT car I'm building for myself has a full roll cage out of 1-3/4" x .095" 4130 Chromoly ... fitted out tight to body for max protection ... with several main hoop supports & a roof bar. The door bars are the same 1-3/4x.095 4130 chromoly ... braced two ways ... because I'm not fond of stuff (telephone poles, other cars, concrete barriers) coming in through a thin door skin.

The front & back cage bars are made of DOM mild steel tubing ... in different diameters & wall thicknesses ... just strong enough to achieve my chassis rigidity goals ... but designed to crush digressively in a front or rear impact.

For the record, we can build anything in our shop but I do not want to be in the roll bar or cage business.

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Guys are installing 4-point roll bars welded to sheet metal ... and going 130mph on the sweeping corners of Haulin' Ass America Speedway ... with a false sense of security. People die in wrecks at slower speeds than that.

I've known Chris Alston since 1979, consider him a good friend & the best designer of drag race cars, cages, suspensions, etc. He an innovator & taught me a lot. If guys were putting full 12-point cages in their cars, I wouldn't have as much concern.

But many guys struggle with the decision on putting a 4-point or 6-point roll bar into these cool, bad ass, high powered, G-pulling, mean machines.
My thoughts are ...if PT guys were educated on this stuff ... and there was a strong, lightweight, effective roll bar available, the smart guys would buy it.

I think the 4/6 point roll bar needs to be:
a. All 1-3/4" x .095" 4130 Chromoly tubing
b. Tight fitting to the body as Chassisworks does
c. Have a cross bar tube behind the seats
d. Two tubes to the rear subframe (not floor)
e. Main hoop weld to plates that weld to the floor of unibody cars & the frame of full frame cars.
f. With two tubes that meet at the intersection of the main hoop & cross bar, welded to the the subframe connectors on unibody cars. Just like Chris designed over 30 years ago.


The better, stronger, safer, less chassis flex version, would be a 6/8 point roll bar ... same as above ... plus:
g. Two door bars, tight fitting to the door for increased cockpit & driver room, that run from the main hoop to as far forward as they can.

Guys ... Chassisworks makes the strongest hinged door bar for easy access. But I suggest you go solid & weld the door bars in. If you can't get your fat ass over the door bar ... Beau Duke ... maybe you shouldn't be driving 120+mph on race tracks.

Place the door bar high enough that it protects you ... and the passenger you're responsible for ... in case of a side impact. Refer to the photo below to see what I mean about height.


The best "roll bar" would include:
h. Two more tubes, forming an X-brace behind the main hoop to add a TON of strength & crush resistance to the main hoop ... for better driver & passenger protection in a roll over crash.

Guys ... look at the blue mustang below & see where the roll bar pushed through the sheetmetal floor ... and the roof & roll bar crushed. I'm starting to like you guys & don't want this happening to you. The added chassis rigidity would pay performance dividends too, making the car more responsive to tuning changes, react quicker, & utilize the car's power & speed better.


Carl, I can not say with any certainty that PT guys would buy a stronger roll bar made out of 1-3/4" x .095" 4130 Chromoly ... but I know that is what I would sell & recommend.

[Sieg]

Video link isn't working for me......

Primary concern on street with roll bars.......no helmet and head injuries. Thoughts?

[garickman]

Originally Posted by Sieg

Video link isn't working for me......

Primary concern on street with roll bars.......no helmet and head injuries. Thoughts?

I guess I will throw my hat in the ring when it comes to street cars with a roll bars or a roll cage. Let me first start by saying I have no experience at all with roll bars or roll cages nor have I ever seen a vehicle in any type of accident that was equipped with such a device. I have however been on the scene of somewhere in the neighborhood of 200-250 motor vehicle accidents and about 25 of those being fatal.

I have seen injuries in person ranging from cuts and bruises to complete decapitation, and I can assure you of one thing. It is impossible to predict what injuries may or may not occur during an accident. I always see people on these forums with the same argument about roll bars and head injuries. It is possible you could suffer severe head trauma from a roll cage that you may not have suffered if the vehicle did not have said cage. On the flip side of that same coin, it is just as possible you may be involved in a violent roll over accident in which that roll bar may have saved your life. It's a coin toss of how effective or how much damage a roll cage would be in the event of a street collision.

[Ron Sutton]

Originally Posted by Sieg

Video link isn't working for me......

Primary concern on street with roll bars.......no helmet and head injuries. Thoughts?

Thanks for catching the video link. I couldn't make the video work either, so I changed the wording & added the blue Mustang photo at the bottom.

As far as the roll bar being installed too close to the driver's head, I copied & pasted my point "J" from my original post #10 on this thread.

Originally Posted by Ron Sutton

J. For Pete’s sake … don’t install a roll bar so close to the driver’s or passenger’s head … that they hit it in an impact … UNLESS you are ALWAYS going to wear a helmet … including on the street. Guys have died from moderate wrecks on city streets, when their unprotected head hit the roll bar and split their head open. In those type of typical auto wrecks, they would have been better off to have no roll bar. Please don’t use this as an excuse to not have one. Just install it with this in mind.

.

[Chassisworks]

Ron,
Our theory with offering the cage in 1-3/4 x .120 wall DOM is that is the requirement for most national road race organizations. If I have heard Chris say this once, it's been 50 times (and I'll paraphrase so I don't get banned for swearing): 'Making these cars handle like race cars without adding adequate protection is stupid, anyone who thinks that they and the car will survive a rollover is on dope.'

Or something to that effect. This is why our gStreet Full Frame comes STANDARD with a six-point, weld-in roll bar.

I'll leave it up to you guys to hash out diameters of tubing. I don't pretend to be a super smart engineer; I just work for one. He let's me touch the computer because I tend to be less abrasive.

[Ron Sutton]

Hi Greg,

Originally Posted by garickman

I guess I will throw my hat in the ring when it comes to street cars with a roll bars or a roll cage. Let me first start by saying I have no experience at all with roll bars or roll cages nor have I ever seen a vehicle in any type of accident that was equipped with such a device. I have however been on the scene of somewhere in the neighborhood of 200-250 motor vehicle accidents and about 25 of those being fatal.
Oh my gosh, that has to turn your stomach. I've been on the scene at a few at the race track. Which is part of what makes me passionate about safety.


I have seen injuries in person ranging from cuts and bruises to complete decapitation, and I can assure you of one thing. It is impossible to predict what injuries may or may not occur during an accident. I always see people on these forums with the same argument about roll bars and head injuries. It is possible you could suffer severe head trauma from a roll cage that you may not have suffered if the vehicle did not have said cage. On the flip side of that same coin, it is just as possible you may be involved in a violent roll over accident in which that roll bar may have saved your life. It's a coin toss of how effective or how much damage a roll cage would be in the event of a street collision.

No disrespect at all ... because you do a tough job & see a lot of crashes on the street. I have a LOT of experience with race car crashes. A lot.

A properly designed & installed roll bar or cage is a sure thing for added driver safety ... because if belted in the seat with a 5-point harness ... the driver can not stretch far enough for their head to come close ... let alone hit it. In the car I'm building for myself, with driver & passenger strapped in, the nearest tube is 5" away. (I always allow 2" for seat belt stretch)

If the builder puts the roll bar too close to the seat ... or the seat too close to the roll bar ... that is dangerous. Otherwise, the only danger is if they don't wear their seat belt. (dumba**) Then the injuries can be worse, as I outlined in point J.

When safety features debut or new safety measures are mentioned ... many of us voice concerns as to using them. I remember my Dad saying, "I'm not wearing seat belts. They can trap you in the car." Today seat belts save so many lives.

But if you installed seat belts so they wrapped around your neck they would probably kill you too.
All safety items need to be installed correctly.

When HANS devices came out, a lot racers said, "I won't wear one. I can't turn my head as far & see well. I may cause a crash." Complete BS. They have saved so many lives in head on impacts. Now drivers just wear then & don't give them a second thought.

My brother in law is a Sheriff down in Riverside and some of the stories he tells from vehicle crash scenes are horrible. I'll bet you have seen some simple crashes where people died needlessly because they weren't wearing their seat belts.

I know I enjoy discussing the "how to go faster" part of cars more. I just don't want to see anymore people die needlessly ... so I speak my mind & share my experiences when it comes to "let's be smart about this" part of car building.