"The Bet" Suspension Thread - 75 BBC Camaro

[DDY RCKT]

Wow, there's really no middle ground on truck arms, is there? Either people love it or hate it. Strange.

[gt1guy]

I would think most people that have installed the kits, and say it's great, were replacing the stock 30+ year old worn out, sagging leaf, blown out shock suspension. At that point, anything is a vast improvement. But, for a suspension to run on road courses, it's at the very bottom of the list. A properly built leafspring set up, with a panhard bar, is much more capable than a truckarm.

Kevin

[DDY RCKT]

I'm going to spend a significant amount of time this weekend with a couple of old road race car designers/builders. It'll be interesting to see what they come up with for a suspension. I have a feeling the Camaro project is going to have something very interesting developed as a one off for her. These guys are really good at what they do, so we'll see. I'll be sure to let you all know what they think!

[moorepwr]

Originally Posted by deuce_454

its like talking to a cop or a woman... dont say anything! dont ask anything untill you find out what you are being acused for... dont ask him what you can run... just agree on road legal tires.. and show up on DOT slicks...

and what ever you do... dont tell him any specifics about the build, that way he is liable to start buying and installing BMW track suspension goodies...

LOL! I'm the guy and I'll spot the fiberglass a mile away :-D DOT racing tires would be out too. He needs to be able to drive it to and from work to qualify and that's like 65 miles, with his so in the passenger seat.

I want him to pull it off. I'll be helping him. I won't be paying him. And the deal was basically my car as I got it with the BFG G-Force Sport KDW tires in stock sizes.

I know this takes a lot of the fun out of it, but I have my own fish to fry: My 1969 Camaro:


Question for the crowd: How hard will adapting the 2004-2007 GTO IRS be, and how well will it work? Between DDY RCKT and myself, we'll figure out the mounting. My Camaro is nothing special, just a base Camaro with V8, deluxe interior, and 12-bolt. The GTO and Camaro are be similar weights; the Camaro will eventually get LS2/4L60E power too.

The first piece of information is that my quicky measurement on widths is that the 12-bolt that's in my Camaro is about 58" wide flange to flange, and that's similar to the width of the IRS from the GTO.

[bucks69]

OH SNAP!!!! He is onto your little scheme!!!!!! LOL

[deuce_454]

Dang.. busted!

wr2 the IRS.. i have helped install a jag IRS on a 67 camaro, its not on the road yet... but it wasnt too hard.. if you should decide against the GTO shoot me a PM and ill send you some sketches...

and wellcome to the site

[stonebreaker]

Pre-fabbed kits cost bucks. Try these sites and do it yourself:

http://www.millikenresearch.com/books.html
http://home.earthlink.net/~whshope/
http://ubmachine.com

[AllSpeedAndy]

I can say from my expierence....call Tony at air ride technologies!!!

I will say at first when building Rogue I was skepticle on all I read, and heard about their stuff...however. First test drive and I was IMPRESSED!!
first off, just the smoothest ride in a muscle car I have ever been in.
second, responsive...man just un-real, a few miles in to it I got a grip on things, and started cranking on it....on the street by far the best stuff you put under a car! On goodyear eagle f1 run flats...this thing would just turn I couldn't believe the performance....i could emagine the track

This stuff seems to work great...and as a package you get all you need.
I'm pretty sure that Phillym5, (who owns a modded '02 m3, lots of susp. work)
wouldn't want to take the same wager against Rogue...of course the only problem with that car is the over abundance of power, she can get away fast!

I'll second the stiffening needed...box that thing up!! solid mounts, threw floor connectors, moly cage, and get the center of gravity as low as possible...and don't think the big block will hinder you much with right set up,
(and possibly alum. heads if not already on it)

Not to step any toes...there are some very good set ups out there and mentioned here...this is just my exper. and opinion.

thanks.

[Daz]

Subscribed !

[Silver69Camaro]

I guess I don't see what the big deal is. Here's why:

My daily driver is a E46 330i with the ZHP package. That includes most of the M-sport goodies except mine has the 5-speed auto (very nice tranny, BTW...). Also has 225/40R18 on front, 255/30R18 on back, which are fairly soft Pilot Sport Cup tires. While it doesn't have a huge amount of power (runs mid 14's in the quarter), it handles and feels very well. It's basically as close to an M3 as you can get without paying the M3 price tag. M3's have lots more power, but the suspensions are very close.

My '69 has our GT Sport Subframe and had fiberglass leafs (changing to something else...). 245/40R18 up front, 275/40R18 in back. 52/48 weight distribution, 2950lbs dry, stock LS1 (with headers), T56, no subframe connectors or cage.

Here's my comparisons between the two cars:
1. The BMW has EXCELLENT steering feel. Most steering systems engineers will tell you the BMW is the benchmark for feedback. When the tires start to slip, you'll feel it and have sufficient time to react. My Camaro did not have this luxury at first, but now that I've reduced the flow rate of the LS1 PS pump, it feels like a race-oriented BMW.

2. The BMW rides better, but rolls more in the corners. I'm very sure the bimmer can turn over .90g, but the Camaro is much more like a track car. Very flat on corners, but still soaks up bumps and is a joy to drive on long trips.

3. The Camaro has much more bite in the turns, and is incredible for the wear rating of the tires (300, BFG KD IIs). The Bimmer is close, but not quite.

4. The Bimmer responds much better to tire pressure changes. Probably because of the weight balance (it's 50/50 or 49/50, somewhere around there). I've found 36psi cold works best on all four corners for balanced handling. Anyway, the Camaro is happy with a wide range of pressures (about 34psi +/- 2psi, so 32-36psi works well). Makes it easier for tuning.

Anyway, so in summary the Camaro feels much more like a race car than the bimmer. A M3 will close this gap somewhat, but I feel the performance of the two vehicles is so close it would be up to the driver on which car is faster. The race may go for the M3 because bimmers are notorious for making a novice driver go fast. If both drivers are good, then it would be a close race!

If I upped the spring rate to 650lbs/in, increase roll stiffness by 15%, lower by 1", and added some sticky DOT tires, it would be untouchable by a stock M3. And these are all changes I can do in a couple hours...