The Ultimate Front Subframe Solution?

[mazspeed]

[QUOTE=ProdigyCustoms]

Originally Posted by mazspeed

Also the car blew the clutch in 5th gear down the 1/4 mile during that same test while posting a 130+ trap. QUOTE]

Holy smokes what rear gear has that thing got in it to use 5th gear at the dragstrip! Our Chevelle runs 130MPH in 4th gear going through at 6600RPM with a 3.73. That thing must leave like a monster! I bet it is a blast to drive!

3.08 I think.
They hit the NOS and poof went the clutch in 5th.

[tyoneal]

Ty, you cannot run a 315 with stock dse or other tube arms, no matter if the frame will allow it, the rims will hit the arms very quickly not allowing any turning radius, among other things, so now you buy that aftermarket frame, you need different arms already, so to base a frame off stock style arms is not the best idea. there are better options out there, and to have really good adjustability you do not need sc/c arms or howe arms etc, its how the susp geometry was set up, its very easy to set a susp up with 1.0 to 1.5 camber for street then have it go to 2.0-2.5 for track duty, caster is typically fine non adjustable just as long as there enough of it, i like 5-7 degrees, other then that as long as the susp has been computer designed, and the rack width, height been designed, along with proper height steering arms, you will end with a very nice chassis.

TY:
Whether the stock DSE control arms would work with a 315 tire, I do not know, however I do know a 315 tire can be run under a stock '69 body, as CAR has already done it. What arms they use I do not know. I'm not so much trying to mix and match everyones parts, as I am trying to say that there seems to be several types/brands of parts on the market that can accomplish a specific task on a suspension. Some use one method, others use another. Some are fixed, others are adjustable. As I have been reading, many of the adjustable "Racing", parts offer a pretty impressive range of flexibility, So much so, that I think they would cover what needs we have and then some..

Further reading on this subject has opened up a New World of possibilities. The racing technology that is available is impressive and in some cases just flat out unbelievable. The needed settings that you mentioned above are well within the range of many of the adjustable parts that are offered. For better or worse the adjustability settings can get, "Out of Control", as far as different combinations if you were not careful. (There are definitely some Anal Retentive Engineers out there)

JAKE:
Also before calling a chassis the ultimate, do you know anything other then parts about it? ie, camber gain, initial camber adjust ability,caster, caster adjust ability, bump steer? these things should be known in a properly designed chassis.
goodluck
jake

TY:
Jake, you are right saying something is the, "ultimate", was a poor use of the word. I guess what I was trying to say is, the subframe that I would really like to have on my car, so "ultimate to me", would be a better way of expressing myself.

As far as my knowledge regarding the settings you mentioned above. Yes, I have read about all of them and I think I have a reasonable understanding of them (Hopefully better as time goes on). What settings are preferred, depends on the intended use and the specifications of a specific vehicle. "Bump Steer", issues seem to have been understood and corrected by the designers of most of the parts that would influence this issue.

I know I am not mentioning any specific parts in my response. I am just trying to clear up some of the Broader questions you have mentioned. This thread was/is intended to address the original question from a wider perspective rather than a specific one. Further, I have no intension in designing my own front suspension, rather see if I can extract additional items from the Racing side, that would be fun to have on our cars.

As you know, the world of Racing is technically complex, however there are many facets of Racing that can be brought over from the pure Racing side to the Street Side, where most of our vehicles reside. As I mentioned earlier, some of them are already here.

I know this was long winded and probably redundant in some places. I just hope it clarifies further my questions.

I hope this was helpful in answering/addressing some of your questions.

Thanks,

Ty O'Neal

[tyoneal]

Travis:
Kinda hard to say something is the ultimate when know one.....will publish there numbers. Not CAR, not ART, or DSE. I guess they all think they are building top secret space shuttles or something. Someone needs to come up with one thats not afraid to post the numbers.

TY:
I agree that a comparison of apples to apples is difficult to do without the specifications of each sub frame.

That said, I believe there are some who do post some of the information you are requesting.

I do think that some of the Racing Companies are a little more open with their specifics.

Take Care,

Ty

[mazspeed]

Originally Posted by tyoneal

Travis:
Kinda hard to say something is the ultimate when know one.....will publish there numbers. Not CAR, not ART, or DSE. I guess they all think they are building top secret space shuttles or something. Someone needs to come up with one thats not afraid to post the numbers.

TY:
I agree that a comparison of apples to apples is difficult to do without the specifications of each sub frame.

That said, I believe there are some who do post some of the information you are requesting.

I do think that some of the Racing Companies are a little more open with their specifics.

Take Care,

Ty

What numbers are you looking for? Performance numbers or suspension geo numbers?

[tyoneal]

Frank:
Well, first of, I love ya like a brother Ty, but your over thinking this my friend! I will bet there is little chance you will ever see the outer limits of any good subframe / Lateral Dynamics combo, so it is all pencil pushing.

The DSE and Art morrison are both proven perfromaer in real world seat of the pants testing, but as travis said the numbers are not readly available. But we do not race numbers anyway.

SpeedTech Subframe does what you are asking for, uses stock type components. And Blake is going to publish the numbers.

But my guess is you will be thrilled with whichever frame you choose, as long as you avoid the obvious "street rodder frames" out there.

TY:
Likewise, thanks for the kind words.
You are right. I am over thinking it from a certain perspective, and I am certain you are also correct that I would never see the outer limits of any good sub frame.

The main difference between your statement and my perspective is that, while being technically correct in your statement, you are addressing it from a, "Practical", point of view. "Is it Practical to seek the Ultimate Street Sub Frame for my car?"

The answer is a big fat, NO!"

On the other hand I have moved past that line of thinking and am addressing from the, "Their is nothing truly practical about 99% of these cars and the stuff we put on it or in it. I'm pencil pushing because as unpractical as I'm being with my current questions, I'm still in a search to find the, "Ultimate Subframe", from my perspective for my car".

I concede, you are 100% correct in your statement. True practical performance has nothing to do with it.

I would like to build the best car I can. (From my perspective) This is absolutely not just transportation. It's an exercise in creating something I/We are passionate about. Bleeding edge technology coupled with classic looks. I am a kid with a big imagination, and a desire to try and fulfill that dream. Nothing more, Nothing less.

This is a project that gets my mind off of the mundane part of the world I live in, and replaces it with something, in some cases, that makes it worth waking up for, in the morning to go to work again.

If I can possibly manage it from a possibility standpoint, and a financially standpoint, I want to build it just because it's fun!

I want a Car to have 315 mm, Big Fat Meats on the Front just like the race cars I remember seeing as a kid. So I can stop them with my practical 6 Piston, 14 inch, two piece rotor brakes, so I can feel the bite of a $400, 200 mph speed rated tire, mounted on a beautiful 3 piece wheel with a powder coated center.

I really need this because if I didn't have it, I might not be able to slow my $35,000 Classic, 550 hp engine, down from 45 mph, to 20 mph as I enter that school zone.

You have to be safe you know, and of course, "It's all about the Children!"

..... and you wonder why I'm so concerned about finding the right sub frame? ;-)

All kidding aside, I'm really just looking for what I would like, not what I need or could use. Yes, I will be taking Driving lessons, but I know needing this technology is ridiculous. Truth be known a properly set up stock sub frame would probably be rarely maximized, if ever.

Is this understandable?

Ty

[tyoneal]

Originally Posted by jonny51

Im not sure of your backround with racing but I would take some driving classes and get the sub you want.

This I would do if I only had a VW bug as Transportation. I've ALWAYS wanted to do it, so this will be completed.

Thanks,

Ty

[tyoneal]

Actually the CAR chassis you can run 315's with an excellent lock to lock with the stock body.

Ty, I'm not sure where you are going with this? I think you're a lot like me in wanting a bad ass car that can out handle a vette. Problem is, there is a lot of subs to choose from that will get you close if not right there. DSE, Art's and CAR's chassis will all get you to where you want to go, it's just how much do you want to spend? You also have to design the rest of your car around the chassis to get your desired effect. How bad ass do you want your car to be with the amount of money you are willing to throw at it? CAR's chassis may be the very best for the track, but do you really need it? Even Kevin will tell you this. If this is just a street car, most other high end subs will be just fine as long as the builders know what they are doing. Also, like Jonny said, you might want to take some driving classes to fully learn how to drive a 3500 pond car with a good chassis at the limit. This of course is not knowing your driving skill.

Jake

==========================================

Jake:

#1 Goal for the car, have FUN!

Out handle a Vette? Sure, but most of it would probably be dependent on the Driver and who was less worried about wading up their car.

I have done very little to the car since I got it because I do realize that Suspension, Engine/Drive Train and Looks, all have to be planned. I don't want to have to buy things twice,

Once again, I don't even need the car much less the special subframe.

I want something different. (and In this crowd that is a challenge)

Something I have been seeking for quite a while.

Maybe a cop out answer, but a true one never the less.

Thanks,

Ty

[tyoneal]

Originally Posted by 68protouring454

also on the c.a.r.s set up, i always have read that it is the ultimate however they blamed shock tuning for its poor performance in the phr testings with the orange car, however, i assume they have sold a few, i am not sure why there are tuning issues since there chassis has been available for a long time, and been in more then a few cars??

Even if they are NOT the ultimate, I'm surprised one of the other builders hasn't considered offering something like this?

I'm sure there would be aspects of a frame like this that would appeal to others in this group. Am I wrong?

Ty

[tyoneal]

Originally Posted by mazspeed

The Orange car which is my buddy's car has a 572 heavy big block in it, and you have to have tuning time to get it to handle correctly. The car is a 54f 46r distribution due to the big engined car. The great thing about that and all chassis from CAR is that they were able to tune the car afterwards. They just got that car finished without testing the car before going to the PHR test grounds. They figured out they needed more spring, and more bar and a few other minor adjustments to make it right, and they didn't have time before hand. Also the car blew the clutch in 5th gear down the 1/4 mile during that same test while posting a 130+ trap. This comes from not being able to have time to sort that car out. Now that car is a 1g car able to run low 10's high 9's in the quarter on street tires. It's an awesome car. Once they tune the chassis for each car, it's the best one you can have due to the fact that you can tune everything, that's one reason why they insist on doing the work themselves.

Mazspeed:

Was this car in a recent article, or an older one? Is this car on a web site somewhere to take a look at it?

What type of rear suspension was it running?

Will there be a follow up article with this car showing the additional performance once dialed in?

What is their shop like?

I've spoken with Kevin He seems like a nice guy. During the update do they communicate well with the customer?

How long does it take them to install their sub frame?

Anything else you can mention is sure welcome.

Thanks,

Ty

[tyoneal]

Originally Posted by mazspeed

What numbers are you looking for? Performance numbers or suspension geo numbers?

Mazspeed:

Good question. Since I have seen very little information with any of the new sub frames regarding performance once installed, I don't know how to create a target number.

That is why if it is possible to find the, "Best", now there would be a benchmark. Since I have a 69 Camaro, I figure that alone will give me the greatest amount of data.

I will be putting in a LS2/7 either supercharged or turbo. Supercharged seems easier and more cost effective, turbo charged is cooler. In any event, shooting for 700 hp at the flywheel and 550 hp at the wheels.

As mentioned, have the LD 3-link in the rear. (3.90 Tru-Track) 315's Currently, will run 335's once I upgrade to 18 inch wheels.

Six pot Wilwoods for the front, 4 Pot Wilwoods for the rear. Two piece rotors and 14 inch and 13 inch rotors respectively.

I did add air, and will be putting a Mark VIII fan in it asap. other than that it is pretty empty.

Based on those numbers, what would you expect?

I'm guessing it will be plenty fast. Handling characteristics,???????

Your Thoughts?

Ty O'Neal