Am I out of line??

[hulsund]

I was think to buy parts from Gearhead Performance before i see what happen with Hellrace on this forum . So for me its easy Iwill try to use firm like summit,jegs gm . Thats is reason when people/ firm are unseriosly like Gearhead Performance evryone loose at the end.
So i understand Doom very well and think thats the way too go.

[4mul8ion]

Interesting topic. My 2 cents.

I didn't see it in your original post but I assume you'd have a mutually agreed to technical requirements document as part of the contract. Others already mentioned the parts delivery portion but I'm referring to hard technical targets to what the engine must do. Not how it is done. I don't think an engine builder would have an issue with a contract so long as your engine requirements are clearly defined up front, is measureable and is something that is within their control to meet.

For example - making up numbers here - the engine must make a minimum of 900 horsepower and 900 ft pounds of torque, redline at 8000 rpm, etc. A requirement like it must be an LS based engine or it must be fuel injected, it must be turbo charged, etc would have to be negotiable as it straddles what and how to meet your requirements.

Not something like: the engine must be around 1000 hp, get 1:00 lap times at <insert track here>, do a standing 1/4 mile in 10 seconds, get 25 mpg, be reliable, have a lopey idle.

How firm are your plans?

[4mul8ion]

Something else I thought of regarding the original question of whether or not a contract is out of line is deals with which state rules apply to the enforcement of the contract if there is a dispute. Your lawyer neighbor will presumably seek to have the rules of Illinois apply to the contract which, to an out of state engine builder, may or may not be out of line.

Kevin

[cluxford]

It's interesting that in most consumer purchases there is rarely a contract agreed by the parties before a sale. Mostly as the item being bought is readily available (well not always) but the buyer is mostly buying something that is produced in reasonable numbers.

In business to business transactions there is always a contract. Mostly as what is being bought is custom or in volume and a long term contract.

I've built a pretty high end car here in Oz that took over 3 years, I understand the waiting
I'm alos a CEO of a $200M company and sign / review contracts every single day f the week

To me I can see bot sides of the argument of contract vs no contract.

It comes down to what you are comfortable with. $40K is a lot of money. A contract would better serve in this case more for quality of product rather than timelines, although obviously timelines can be built into it with acceptable leeway for both parties. But a contract is to protect your investment and get what you paid for.

I think having a contract in place is a good thing. If you were a business buying a number of engines custom built you would have a contract, so what's the difference for 1 engine ?

As said i can see both sides, ie trust and communication overcome need for contract, and I agree. But in my experience a contract is ONLY ever needed when it all turns to sh#%t, if it goes o plan the contract will gather dust in the bottom drawer. so any builder that refuses a contract is therefore somewhat expecting it to go bad....

Of course assumption here being that you will allow reasonable timelines under the expectation of delays due to the uniqueness of your engine...within reason of course

[tones2SS]

Originally Posted by Vegas69

Tell them you want reasonable expectations up front due to you past experiences. Do your research and find recent references.

I agree with Todd on the above.
I don't think you're out of line at all Mario. Heck, it is better to protect yourself than get taken over the barrel, so to speak.

[Todd in vancouver]

It really is sad that it has come to this when you think about it. I have to admit that reading about other fellow hobby builders who have been fleeced but unsavoury shops/suppliers has made all of us a bit gun shy of getting taken. After reading so many guys screaming for help on different forums I've changed my buying habits. Living in Canada we are use to having to pay more for parts and when I see some of the deals south of the boarder I feel like jumping on them but at the end of the day I can't afford to lose my money to a supplier who takes my money and runs.

Now a days I deal locally or if I'm ordering something I tend to stick to bigger companies, like TCI or Detroit Speed direct. It's been said multiple times and I have to agree go with someone local and where you are able to follow up personally and ensure you are getting what you pay for. I don't think it's a bad idea having a schedule laid out on when you get your product and payments at certain completion points so that you feel secure and are able to see your product with your own eyes at those completion points.

Now I've got to go read your thread to see what a $40K engine is goin in.

[Shmoov69]

One thing about the references is that any idiot has some good references. That's the bad part for sure. Like I said earlier and has been echoed, if the builder has a problem, then he's not the guy I'd go with. Unless you have some crazy contract.

But check as many references as you can anyway!! LOL!!

[DOOM]

Thanks for the input guys. A lot of good points here. I just think the stories of guys getting taken is getting a lot worse these days .The biggest reason for this really isn't about time I am fully aware that these guys are depending on vendors to get them parts. You can't put a motor together without parts! I have the same issues in my business. When I'm in that situation I simply notify my customer of the delay and why and provide them with the number of my vendor if they wish to verify. COMMUNICATION is a key part in this matter. I do however disagree with the fact it will turn off potential builders. I did contact two that had no problem with doing a contract . I made it clear why I was doing it and they fully understood where I was coming from. The vendor supply did come up but everything else was not a problem. When it comes to referrals I'm on the fence with that . I was referred to AP by several people and we all know what happen there! So it really comes down to getting ripped off of my hard earned money. I really don't think asking a vendor to do this is a lot to ask. I just want to make sure my money isn't funding someone else's project ! I can go on and on with this but I think its time to make some changes and make vendors more responsible on how they handle our money.

[Vegas69]

Is the builder best suited for the job willing to sign your contract?

Would you take a customers custom contract at your business?

My opinion is that if you go to court, with or without a contract, you lose...(Financially) A $40,000 investment isn't large when you get attornies involved.

[ccracin]

A contract is like a lock on the door, just trying help keep honest people honest!

Never the less we all still have locks on our doors.