Is there a better way to execute car projects

[GregWeld]

I didn't read every post here so I may be redundant.... but I have now had THREE cars professionally built. All three are at high end nationally recognized shops. So perhaps I can lend some "thoughts" to the question.

#1 - Thing that I've become aware of is having customers that can actually AFFORD to build what they're building. Why is this important? Because the shop can order parts - stay on the build - get paid on time.

#2 - Project creep. This is fine if #1 is met. Otherwise - it leads to too many "oh sh!t" moments by customer and shop. Project creep is inevitable. Your buddies stop by and say - hey! You know what would really be cool.... or the way something was supposed to look, doesn't work right... and that leads to brainstorming which leads to more work.

#3 - Working with customers based on upfront "price" for the work. This is IMPOSSIBLE. These projects always take more time and cost more money.. why? Because it's custom. Custom hasn't been done before - or often - and thus nobody really knows what it's going to take to pull off.


Here's my own REAL WORLD experince:



SAR experience.... Now -- this is not about "ME" -- I'm just using my own experience. The SAR build started as a rear end and tranny swap... and finding out what was wrong with the motor. Once the body was off the chassis ---- it turned in to a full on build. I never asked what it was going to cost. I know that I can afford to do the job whatever that is. This is certainly not true for most people.... even if they have plenty of money - they didn't get their money by just throwing it around. Sometimes the guys with the most money are also the most demanding and difficult! Think about this scenario.... the car goes into the shop... a very small scope of work... which turned into a $200K plus build. This happens more often than not. Did the shop have the time and people in place to take this on --- or is it going to sit and wait for available time?


BRIZIO experience.... This was a discussion which began in a hotel lobby. A stop at the shop and some more detailed discussion. A basic plan was put on to paper and a general discussion about cost to completion. A "quote" which was just a casual discussion was "somewhere around $225 to $300K depending on how custom you want to go. Here's my point here. If a guy can't afford to discuss these kinds of numbers. He has no business even starting a project. BRIZIO has a waiting list to get a build done... he doesn't need to quote some BS number to get a customer hooked into the shop. Many shops under-estimate on purpose. They don't really know what their costs are going to be and they don't want to scare off a potential customer. THEY need a customer because they have rent and salaries due next week. The problems start when both the customer and the shop are BS'ing each other!! The shop says -- $125K and the real deal is far closer to $250K or more! The stupid customer is fine with the $125K because he's also BS'ing himself into thinking it can be done for that. If he went home and added up the "hard costs" - body - motor/trans - wheels - upholstery/paint... he'd know he has $100k in just hard parts ----- no way it's built for $25K in labor. DOH! That isn't going to end well.


Pinkee's Rod Shop experience.... This build started with me trying to buy Eric's personal '40 Ford pickup. HE did a comparo of building out his truck including the purchase price - vs - buying a clapped out truck and starting new. While it was closer than you'd think - it made more sense to buy a body somewhere. Just the labor wasted on taking something apart has to be included in the "build". This is a rather straight forward simple build. Body - some mods - frame - motor/trans - paint - upholstery - tires and wheels. A "number" was discussed - and that number is a good starting point because it was a REAL number. Around $150K+ to start. NOW -- the other day I email him and ask if he has some "ideas" for some "Pinkee's" style to be done on the truck... and here ya go.... what is that - does it require a re-do of work already done? Where does that lead... how much time did it just add? What does changing one thing do to something else? NOBODY KNOWS.


In the end -- the point of my long winded ramble is that it all depends on the type of customer you can attract and KEEP... and you're not going to attract a "me" when you're just starting out. Nobody is going to walk in and have you build a car for them when there's The Roadster Shop - or Brizio's - or Trepanier - or Jessie Greening.... So you're going to start off with the BS builds where you don't know what the cost is going to be and you really don't know if the customer can pay the freight.

Now -- let's add the "small shop" syndrome. You're just starting out - you can't define who you are - or what is coming thru the door. You might have a remodel of a '32 Ford -- or it might be a full on custom '70 Ford. YOU are going to have to spend an inordinate amount of time trying to find parts suppliers. Learning what works and what doesn't... AND waiting for the parts to arrive... and you can't do X without Y being on hand... Fine if you have half a dozen cars going at any given time... but what if you only have 2 and you don't have the parts to go forward on either of them. Or you get the parts and they're shipped wrong - or don't fit....

A shop like Brizio's builds the same "style" of cars over and over - they have suppliers that will bust their butts to keep them happy. They'll get the last set of headers on the shelf before some guy they've never heard of before gets them.... They've built the same stuff so many times they know what is going to work and what combo doesn't. They have customers that are experienced and they trust the shop to make adjustments as they come up. When I needed a replacement water pump and nobody had one - they made a call deep inside to a supplier -- all the way to the Dyno room at that supplier and got one. Normal shops don't have those connections. Many times it's not what you know it's WHO you know.


IMHO -- many of the "bad" experiences start with a customer that is a dumbass... who has chosen a shop based on an unrealistic quote/cost basis that suits what he thinks it should be done for. The shop is all to happy to take on the work = maybe honestly or maybe just because they need that work right now. Many times that shop might be a body shop and now you're asking them to be a mechanical shop and a suspension shop. Many times that shop is used to doing spot paint and the occasional whole car paint job... and you're expecting SEMA quality paint and bodywork.... on a body shop quote.

In the end -- it's a MESSY BUSINESS.... period. I don't know that anyone is capable of making it a simple well run machine - because you're dealing with people and I think it's the people that are the messy part - not just the cars. If that makes sense.

[bentfab]

Greg,

So when do I/We get to start on your next project ?

Oh shoot! I must have been thinking about the wrong Greg Sorry !!

[Ron Sutton]

Originally Posted by GregWeld

I didn't read every post here so I may be redundant.... but I have now had THREE cars professionally built. All three are at high end nationally recognized shops. So perhaps I can lend some "thoughts" to the question.

#1 - Thing that I've become aware of is having customers that can actually AFFORD to build what they're building. Why is this important? Because the shop can order parts - stay on the build - get paid on time.

#2 - Project creep. This is fine if #1 is met. Otherwise - it leads to too many "oh sh!t" moments by customer and shop. Project creep is inevitable. Your buddies stop by and say - hey! You know what would really be cool.... or the way something was supposed to look, doesn't work right... and that leads to brainstorming which leads to more work.

#3 - Working with customers based on upfront "price" for the work. This is IMPOSSIBLE. These projects always take more time and cost more money.. why? Because it's custom. Custom hasn't been done before - or often - and thus nobody really knows what it's going to take to pull off.


Here's my own REAL WORLD experince:



SAR experience.... Now -- this is not about "ME" -- I'm just using my own experience. The SAR build started as a rear end and tranny swap... and finding out what was wrong with the motor. Once the body was off the chassis ---- it turned in to a full on build. I never asked what it was going to cost. I know that I can afford to do the job whatever that is. This is certainly not true for most people.... even if they have plenty of money - they didn't get their money by just throwing it around. Sometimes the guys with the most money are also the most demanding and difficult! Think about this scenario.... the car goes into the shop... a very small scope of work... which turned into a $200K plus build. This happens more often than not. Did the shop have the time and people in place to take this on --- or is it going to sit and wait for available time?


BRIZIO experience.... This was a discussion which began in a hotel lobby. A stop at the shop and some more detailed discussion. A basic plan was put on to paper and a general discussion about cost to completion. A "quote" which was just a casual discussion was "somewhere around $225 to $300K depending on how custom you want to go. Here's my point here. If a guy can't afford to discuss these kinds of numbers. He has no business even starting a project. BRIZIO has a waiting list to get a build done... he doesn't need to quote some BS number to get a customer hooked into the shop. Many shops under-estimate on purpose. They don't really know what their costs are going to be and they don't want to scare off a potential customer. THEY need a customer because they have rent and salaries due next week. The problems start when both the customer and the shop are BS'ing each other!! The shop says -- $125K and the real deal is far closer to $250K or more! The stupid customer is fine with the $125K because he's also BS'ing himself into thinking it can be done for that. If he went home and added up the "hard costs" - body - motor/trans - wheels - upholstery/paint... he'd know he has $100k in just hard parts ----- no way it's built for $25K in labor. DOH! That isn't going to end well.


Pinkee's Rod Shop experience.... This build started with me trying to buy Eric's personal '40 Ford pickup. HE did a comparo of building out his truck including the purchase price - vs - buying a clapped out truck and starting new. While it was closer than you'd think - it made more sense to buy a body somewhere. Just the labor wasted on taking something apart has to be included in the "build". This is a rather straight forward simple build. Body - some mods - frame - motor/trans - paint - upholstery - tires and wheels. A "number" was discussed - and that number is a good starting point because it was a REAL number. Around $150K+ to start. NOW -- the other day I email him and ask if he has some "ideas" for some "Pinkee's" style to be done on the truck... and here ya go.... what is that - does it require a re-do of work already done? Where does that lead... how much time did it just add? What does changing one thing do to something else? NOBODY KNOWS.


In the end -- the point of my long winded ramble is that it all depends on the type of customer you can attract and KEEP... and you're not going to attract a "me" when you're just starting out. Nobody is going to walk in and have you build a car for them when there's The Roadster Shop - or Brizio's - or Trepanier - or Jessie Greening.... So you're going to start off with the BS builds where you don't know what the cost is going to be and you really don't know if the customer can pay the freight.

Now -- let's add the "small shop" syndrome. You're just starting out - you can't define who you are - or what is coming thru the door. You might have a remodel of a '32 Ford -- or it might be a full on custom '70 Ford. YOU are going to have to spend an inordinate amount of time trying to find parts suppliers. Learning what works and what doesn't... AND waiting for the parts to arrive... and you can't do X without Y being on hand... Fine if you have half a dozen cars going at any given time... but what if you only have 2 and you don't have the parts to go forward on either of them. Or you get the parts and they're shipped wrong - or don't fit....

A shop like Brizio's builds the same "style" of cars over and over - they have suppliers that will bust their butts to keep them happy. They'll get the last set of headers on the shelf before some guy they've never heard of before gets them.... They've built the same stuff so many times they know what is going to work and what combo doesn't. They have customers that are experienced and they trust the shop to make adjustments as they come up. When I needed a replacement water pump and nobody had one - they made a call deep inside to a supplier -- all the way to the Dyno room at that supplier and got one. Normal shops don't have those connections. Many times it's not what you know it's WHO you know.


IMHO -- many of the "bad" experiences start with a customer that is a dumbass... who has chosen a shop based on an unrealistic quote/cost basis that suits what he thinks it should be done for. The shop is all to happy to take on the work = maybe honestly or maybe just because they need that work right now. Many times that shop might be a body shop and now you're asking them to be a mechanical shop and a suspension shop. Many times that shop is used to doing spot paint and the occasional whole car paint job... and you're expecting SEMA quality paint and bodywork.... on a body shop quote.

In the end -- it's a MESSY BUSINESS.... period. I don't know that anyone is capable of making it a simple well run machine - because you're dealing with people and I think it's the people that are the messy part - not just the cars. If that makes sense.

This is so accurate it's not even funny. Well ... it's a little funny.

When we did Greg's 65 Mustang Track Car "Make over" ... Greg (the customer) made it easy on us (the builders). I had a very comprehensive plan & cost estimates. Greg said, "Do it right, the way you think it needs to be done ... and here's the money." So we were able to basically rebuild everything in the entire powertain, suspension, wheels & brakes in 8 weeks. (The body, interior & cage stayed the same)

And like Greg said, there was scope creep ... 20-30% I think. I hate scope creep. I had laid out a plan that was very comprehensive up front. But when you find things you weren't expecting ... what do you do? Your choices are to leave them alone ... to the detriment of the car ... or fix/improve them & add cost. When we got in there, I saw things I didn't like & Greg said to make them right. We found some things that needed rebuilt & we found some things we could improve.

In a full muscle car rebuild ... where you don't really know what the body work needs until you get into it ... whew! Or if you don't know what the customer really wants ... or they don't know ... that's impossible to know exactly how much work it will take. This is where I think planning & quoting a range is the best strategy. Like Brizzio ... here is the price range. If you can't afford that, then this isn't going to end well. I hate to see good guys have a falling out over a car build ... but it happens all the time ... because of the flaws in this process.

[Blake Foster]

Originally Posted by Ron Sutton

This is so accurate it's not even funny. Well ... it's a little funny.

When we did Greg's 65 Mustang Track Car "Make over" ... Greg (the customer) made it easy on us (the builders). I had a very comprehensive plan & cost estimates. Greg said, "Do it right, the way you think it needs to be done ... and here's the money." So we were able to basically rebuild everything in the entire powertain, suspension, wheels & brakes in 8 weeks. (The body, interior & cage stayed the same)

And like Greg said, there was scope creep ... 20-30% I think. I hate scope creep. I had laid out a plan that was very comprehensive up front. But when you find things you weren't expecting ... what do you do? Your choices are to leave them alone ... to the detriment of the car ... or fix/improve them & add cost. When we got in there, I saw things I didn't like & Greg said to make them right. We found some things that needed rebuilt & we found some things we could improve.

In a full muscle car rebuild ... where you don't really know what the body work needs until you get into it ... whew! Or if you don't know what the customer really wants ... or they don't know ... that's impossible to know exactly how much work it will take. This is where I think planning & quoting a range is the best strategy. Like Brizzio ... here is the price range. If you can't afford that, then this isn't going to end well. I hate to see good guys have a falling out over a car build ... but it happens all the time ... because of the flaws in this process.

And There you have it. I have worked with Ron and let me tell you when he says comprehensive, it probably included the 1/4" flat washers. If there was creep then it is going to be almost IMPOSSIBLE to not have it.

Greg is right on the mark when he talks about shops not padding the estimate and Customers THINKING it can be done for less.

[GregWeld]

Originally Posted by bentfab

Greg,

So when do I/We get to start on your next project ?

Oh shoot! I must have been thinking about the wrong Greg Sorry !!

HAHAHAHAHAHA - Get in line! You have no idea how many people approach me wanting to build something. That and the last two were accidental builds. LOL

You would be on my very short list of who has the potential though! XOXO

[GregWeld]

Originally Posted by Ron Sutton

This is so accurate it's not even funny. Well ... it's a little funny.

When we did Greg's 65 Mustang Track Car "Make over" ... Greg (the customer) made it easy on us (the builders). I had a very comprehensive plan & cost estimates. Greg said, "Do it right, the way you think it needs to be done ... and here's the money." So we were able to basically rebuild everything in the entire powertain, suspension, wheels & brakes in 8 weeks. (The body, interior & cage stayed the same)

I should have said FOUR "experiences"! I didn't think about the Mustang as a normal project -- but frankly -- it was no different than any other project except that it didn't entail body and paint work.

This was another -- "just happened" project. I asked Ron to take a long look at the car and to assess what improvements it could use. That lead to a complete re-do, and I couldn't be happier with the outcome. And yes -- there were additional work items - but once again - who would expect to NOT have additional work once you get in there and see what's what?!?!?! Only somebody that's a complete dumbass would think he's only going to do exactly what was discussed and it was going to cost exactly what was talked about. Complete BS! These are cars... they have issues. We don't know what the issues are until people rip into them.

Now - in fairness to Ron... The discussion was also along the lines of WHAT IS OF VALUE based on the cars use -- and my expectations. HE gave me reasons and options all based on what I described to him as my expectations. There was no budget discussion until we first had the expectations/use conversation. Then he came up with a plan and quoted a cost. From there we moved forward. Was it done on the cheap? NO! Was it done right, and fair, and exceeds expectations? YES!

A QUALITY shop won't do "on the cheap" builds... they'll simply come up with an excuse to NOT work on your car. I remember asking Roy Brizio if he'd build me a chassis for my '37 Ford... and he said "sure we can! But you won't want to pay me what it's going to cost. There are too many businesses that will build you a chassis for 10 grand -- and I'm going to have to charge you time and material and that's going to cost you way more than it's worth... but if you want me to I will?" That's the kind of shop I want to do business with.

If Ron wanted me to put rockets on the car - I would have done that.... but he knew what the intended purpose was - and the goal... and then only did the amount of stuff that was required to get it to that point. He could have doubled the amount of work and parts -- but his business sense says - no - that would be "cool" but wouldn't be worth the cost. That's a person that gets my recommendation and repeat business.

[MeanMike]

It's an old saying: Quick, cheap or good. You can only have two. The shops that only deliver one go out of business. Some shops just need to learn when to fire their customer.

Adding project managers and business experts won't magically make all three happen. In fact because they do not produce, it will likely cut out cheap. I don't think everyone should be able to have a car built. It used to be that if you wanted a cool car, you had to build it yourself.

I've worked in a few custom car and race shops. They all payed less than half what a decent mechanic, machinist, welder or fabricator would make, but I did all three. I got tired of it, went back to school and got an engineering degree. Now I build parts and cars on the side. I am very picky about what I do and who I do it for and I don't work cheap anymore.

[Ron in SoCal]

Rockets? Hmmm...

[Vegas69]

Business is business to a large degree. They all have inherent challenges. X amount of dollars invested leads to x amount of potential profit. That ratio is dictated by the type of business. There are always the 20% that make it in the industry and the 80% that struggle. Blake mentions $80 an hour but there are guys in the industry that are pulling in 4-5 times? that with Greg Weld type clients. Just like the best attorney's, doctors, businesses, there's always someone making a killing in each field. It's typically not magic either. They progressively gain skills, operate with integrity, provide great customer service, and can run a business. Eventually it all snow balls into a Brizio or Ring Brothers where the demand is so high, they can pick and choose their clientele at a high rate.

[GregWeld]

Originally Posted by Vegas69

Business is business to a large degree. They all have inherent challenges. X amount of dollars invested leads to x amount of potential profit. That ratio is dictated by the type of business. There are always the 20% that make it in the industry and the 80% that struggle. Blake mentions $80 an hour but there are guys in the industry that are pulling in 4-5 times? that with Greg Weld type clients. Just like the best attorney's, doctors, businesses, there's always someone making a killing in each field. It's typically not magic either. They progressively gain skills, operate with integrity, provide great customer service, and can run a business. Eventually it all snow balls into a Brizio or Ring Brothers where the demand is so high, they can pick and choose their clientele at a high rate.

Brizio's posted hourly rate is $105 an hour. Your math is a bit fuzzy....

That sounds "expensive" until you get the bills and see how QUICKLY they do a common job such as run brake and fuel lines - or build you a custom exhaust. They've done it so many times they're fast at it. In the end - THEIR shop rate is not expensive at all. What's expensive is the guy that quotes $35 an hour and takes 3 times as long and doesn't do as nice a job... or never finishes your car and you end up ripping everything they did out and paying someone else to do it over. THAT is expensive.


This is the other thing that I've come to figure out. I've built and repaired more cars than I care to remember. I've personally done all of this work. I have a ton of tools - I have all the time in the world - I have space to work in. But I can never build something as QUICKLY or as NICELY as a guy that specializes and does the same type of work day in and day out. At shops like Brizio - they have guys that only do plumbing and exhaust. Another guy does sheet metal etc. In my little shed - I have to do the brake lines - and the TIG welding and the patch panel and figure out the axle width.

When you look around at a shop like The Roadster Shop... they have specialists. They have fabulous tools... they have in house machining... they have guys with serious skills. They have two or three (IDK) guys MANAGING the shop and ordering parts and billing and maybe a guy that just drives around picking up and delivering stuff. If you're a small shop -- you have to do all of that yourself and that time costs money. There's only so many hours in a day. Can you manage the shop - do the bidding - fetch the parts - shop for parts - do the bookkeeping and payroll etc. Can you earn enough money quickly enough or have the CAPITAL to go out and buy a $16,000 Eckold Kraftformer if you need one...

Why can a shop like Brizio or The Roadster Shop or The Ring Brothers build such "EXPENSIVE" cars? Because they have the skills required -- and the customers required to foot the bills to build unlimited budget cars. People look at these cars and then gasp at the numbers thrown around.... but they don't apply the corresponding amount of hours it takes to do the enormous amount of HAND BUILT EVERYTHING.

Roy B will tell you that it took him 25 YEARS to get to where he's at, and for many years it was tough sledding.... Not sure how long it took Phil and Jeremy - but it wasn't rags to riches in 6 months.... and Ring Bros had another business and the fancy stuff was born from that.

I think most guys that are doing this line of work are doing it because they love it -- and they can eke out a living doing something they love to do. If you really asked them - they probably made a better / easier living when they just worked for someone else. BTW -- if you want to check out something where real actual MANAGEMENT is in the works -- make an appointment to tour Brian Hobaugh's body shop! Now there is a place where you could apply your (TO THE OP) productivity skills. You've never seen such a well oiled machine!