Force Feed ZZ502

[ccracin]

Originally Posted by Speedster

Chad -
A couple of questions regarding your max boost question - are you going to run an intercooler and/or water/alcohol injection ? They make quite a difference. If not, you can run higher boost (and save money) by running a blower carb on a good single plane intake versus a very expenseive sheet metal intake/EFI combo. From the tons of dyno pulls Tom Nelson did on a 540 Procharger EFI with intercooler, 15 psi on 91 octane is about the max to make power while staying safely away from detonation. You could go a little higher with 93 octane or water/alcohol injection, but you are pushing the gaskets very hard at that point. For sizing an F1 or F1R would be a good choice.

Bruce,
Yes, I am planning on an intercooler. The truck front end will allow a fairly large one in my opinion. I am going to build a custom rad. support. I was thinking of a Ron Davis Rad/Intercooler setup, any comments? The sheet metal intake is for the wow factor, if the price factor goes too high it will get replaced with a more standard EFI manifold. I think 15 psi would be more than acceptable if it is reliable. That is the reason for the EFI, I don't want my Dad worrying about a carb tune up. I am also hoping not to have to run a cog drive, do you think it is needed at this level? If my calculations are right 15psi should be in the 900hp range taking into account power to drive the blower. What are your thoughts on the internals of this engine? I was planning a head gasket swap, my thought was cometics. Any comments? Thanks for the information.

Chad

[Blown353]

Just my opinion here on how to proceed spending your money: the engine will make way more power with *less* boost if you buy good heads and use a simple single plane EFI intake compared to running the stock heads and an expensive sheetmetal intake.

You'll probably come out the same either route in the money department, I strongly suggest you spend the money on the heads and just run a cheaper but still good EFI single plane-- it will make more power everywhere! The out of the box ZZ502 heads simply aren't very good pieces, the exhaust ports are the real choker on them. You can easily change the intake later. Do the heads first! A single plane can still look pretty trick if you run an elbow on top with a monoblade throttlebody. A monoblade is the preferred setup for a boosted application, the throttle response is noticeably improved compared to a 4-barrel style throttle body.

You can probably get away with a 12-rib belt if you run a GOOD tensioner (i.e. not the one Procharger provides.)

As far as headgaskets, MLS gaskets such as Cometics are an excellent option and are the only way to go on most engines, boosted or not-- but only if the block and head flatness and surface finishes meet the criteria for them to seal up properly. A good shop can easily provide these finishes if they know what they are doing and their surfacing equipment & cutters are in good shape.

[ccracin]

Again, I couldn't agree more. The sheetmetal intake will most probably be a creation of my own. If I go that route. I have a couple ideas I am modeling on the computer. A friend of mine is one of the best welders I have ever seen. The tig welding isn't an issue. I also have a friend that owns a commercial machine shop. The machining will not be an issue. To top it all off they are both car guys. I may use a converted tunnel ram lower intake with a sheetmetal top. Either way I will use a single throttle blade. I would love to consider the AFR's. What are they going for these days? I've seen their adds for about 3200. Anyone know of any better deals? If I could get 1700 or 1800 out of the heads I have, I would consider a swap since I'm going to have the heads off anyway. If not I can always do them down the road. Let me summarize, everyone seems to think that the zz502 short block with AFR heads, cometic gaskets, EFI, and an intercooled pro-charcher F1 will do 15psi and make 1000hp. Also be absolutely reliable. Yes or No? Any comments on the EFI? Accel,BS3,etc.

[camcojb]

Originally Posted by ccracin

Again, I couldn't agree more. The sheetmetal intake will most probably be a creation of my own. If I go that route. I have a couple ideas I am modeling on the computer. A friend of mine is one of the best welders I have ever seen. The tig welding isn't an issue. I also have a friend that owns a commercial machine shop. The machining will not be an issue. To top it all off they are both car guys. I may use a converted tunnel ram lower intake with a sheetmetal top. Either way I will use a single throttle blade. I would love to consider the AFR's. What are they going for these days? I've seen their adds for about 3200. Anyone know of any better deals? If I could get 1700 or 1800 out of the heads I have, I would consider a swap since I'm going to have the heads off anyway. If not I can always do them down the road. Let me summarize, everyone seems to think that the zz502 short block with AFR heads, cometic gaskets, EFI, and an intercooled pro-charcher F1 will do 15psi and make 1000hp. Also be absolutely reliable. Yes or No? Any comments on the EFI? Accel,BS3,etc.

Here's the monoblade setup Troy mentioned:


Yes, your combo with those heads, correct cam and F1 intercooled should make 1000 HP at 15 psi. If it's built right it should be very reliable.

My 540 got 19 mpg on the freeway, and did it more than once. I drove it all the time. I used a FAST system on mine but BigStuff3 and Accel Gen VII are also good. I think FAST or BS3 are easier to tune than the Accel.

I think http://www.lewisracingengines.com/pa...2073/index.htm had the AFR's at less than $2400 with the CNC chambers last I checked. Call Mike for a current quote.



Jody

[Speedster]

Listen to these guys, they are pointing you in the right direction. They've "been there, done that". Use a good single plane and go for the AFR heads. They are just plain superior. Cometics are excellent head gaskets. I used a cog because I am a psycho case, but both Jody and Blown have used the serpentine and (I think) it worked for both. I highly recommend talking to Tim at Ron Davis for the radiator and intercooler, but be forewarned, none of this is cheap. Obviously, you are looking for the biggest bang for your buck, but to reliably obtain high horsepower, there is always expense. Do what you want, but remember, if you can't get it to the ground, the higher the power the WORSE it gets. The 'ol sliding versus static friction game.

[ccracin]

Jody, Bruce,Speed,
Don't think I am hard headed. If I hadn't mentioned it before I am a Mechanical Engineer if that explains anything. I try to exhaust my questions and evaluate the options. I realize this cost money and alot of it. When I was racing it was nothing to build a 40K car and trash it the first night. Then put it back together. And so on. We are aware of what quality costs. I once went through 3 Howe rad's in on night and didn't even finish the race! I will be in contact with lewis racing engines. The other thing I need to make clear is I keep saying I am spending the money. This is coming out of Dad's wallet, so that is another reason for all the dialogue. I am going to use this thread to present the different options to him. I am the designer, engineer and builder. Hopefully I get to drive it. Thanks for the info on the efi as well, that agrees with other comments I have received. Where are you guys located? Do you ever get to the Goodguys show in Columbus? Know anybody that wants a decent set of factory aluminum heads? I really appreciate the time you guys have taken. I hope you will continue to help through out the process.

[TOM NELSON]

1000 hp on that engine should be no problem at 16 psi you just have to have he right turbo's and a cam to match.The real problem in that engine is the piston you will burn a hole in the center of it.It's made to thin i don't know if je fixed this problem yet but when I went professional 11 years ago this is all we did is Twin Turbo marine Big Blocks and Every customer wanted to bolt on a tt set-up or a big roots deal everytime like clock work the piston would burn .Switch two Turbo specific Piston with around .220 thickness the problem would go away.Here's some good advise get a set of Oliver forged rods and a turbo je flat top piston with some hell fire rings.Re valve job the heads with a tight radius cutter and make the 45 .080 wide also when you cut the valve open it up to a 2.25/1.900 back cut the intake 30degrees all the way to the lap line.on the intakes leave the ex's alone.Do a bowl blend just into the valve job but don't go into the radius cut to far clean up around the guide boss on the ex side not much more than that.Inconel ex valves are a must.Cometic would be a for sure .if you have the money do a o-ring reciever groove.Switch the bearings out to h-series clevite has to be clevite.

[TOM NELSON]

This should get you reliable at the 800hp mark.And reliable for short squirts at a 1000hp obviously tolerances and machine work need to be right thats a book in itself.But here it is the Single most important decision you can make is the right turbo's and cam to match.Thats where i see most everyone go wrong.The right turbo and the wrong turbo is flat out everything we just made 2300hp out a sbc with turbo's everyone and i mean everyone said would not work.I have a turbo cam combo that will work awesome for your application.Nope i'm not going to tell you anything about them just that they will get you where you need to be and will have basically zero lag.If your interested give me a call and i'll sell you a set.Hope this helps you Tom

[ccracin]

Tom,

I will definately be calling. Thanks.

Chad

[Speedster]

Chad - Definately call Tom. He has probably run 50+ combinations on any given setup just to find the ultimate combo that works.