Rendering of Stuart's Alumin8r!!

[camcojb]

I've always backed you Kris, and will continue to do so. I've sent people to you, I know of a few that you've ended up doing the renditions for. I am very pleased with what you did for me, so it's an easy recommendation.

I'm with Scott, if he's backing off on the calendar so am I. I do believe you need to get an attorney to draw up whatever legal paperwork you need to protect yourself.

Jody

[68protouring454]

i may be on the outside as i think you are over priced, but your work is great, BUT this is complete crap, there was talk about the calender over at pt.com almost a year ago, What have you done about it?? NOTHING!! **** i see posts all the time about where you are and why you do not answer emails, i bet 90% of your business comes from these sites!!! now that scott and jody are doing something about it you think you should be paid??? you were paid when the rendition was done!!PERIOD!! end of story thats it, its there car etc, if you make anything legal up, i bet you do 1/2 the renditions that you do know probaly less if a guy knows he cannot do anything with them. scott and jody only did the posters because they said they were having them done and guys loved the look and wanted some. if your are looking out for you, why did it take you this long to do it???
oh yeah i believe this crap about taking a real long time to do the rendtions at first, but once you have the body style down, you can do these quick, **** the only changes you make to the pt's crowd cars is color and rims, maybe adjust stance some, come on, i am sure theres more to it, but you are kidding everyone if you say everyone takes so long,i am sure it takes time but not nearly as much as the first one or 2 cars, which is how you probaly priced them, on how long it took you, now you have donw 10 of them you mean to tell me it takes the same amount of time?? no way, give us all a break, if you want rights to your work, you probaly won't have work, .
that would be like me painting a car and saying that they could not use it in pics for a magazine article, unless i had a whole right up on my shop in the article, cause i was looking out for me!!!, give a me a break, i can tell you no one would come to me if i put that crap restrictions on a car i painted, let alone i would be happy even if they put my shop name in the details part of the article, then anyone close to me would think about me when it came time to have a car painted,thats all i would need to be happy just like when they see scotts and jody's rendtions they say wow, who did that?? i want one!! thats all you need and will keep you busy for years, this other crap will kill you quickly, but by the sounds of it you need more than that, which i doubt will fly here, **** i would pre pay scott or jody now for a calender, jody whats your paypal ??lol
you dragged your feet long enough on this, let someone who will get it done do it, **** you ought to give customers back money for the way they advertise for you, wake up, take a pill
scott jody, i would love to see a calender, as i am sure there are 50 others who think the same.
kris stick to renditions, you have hard enough time getting them done
rant over, this really got me going, just letting you know if you couldn't tell
jake

[Ummgawa]

Listen up here Fellas. There is a bigger issue here at stake, that you, Kris, may not have considered. When you make these renditions, your right is to the Method in which you create them. I believe that the two biggest Corporations in the world may come knocking on your door when YOU set out to make a profit on WHAT you are rendering. I believe, from what I can see, that you are doing renderings of Camaros, Chevelles, Shoebox cars, Mustangs, etc. When you decide to profit from images that GM and Ford own, friend, you have officially woke up two sleeping Giants that are like Pit Bulls with HIV when it comes to protecting shapes, images, and even names (Like Camaro- I believe that is written on the majority of the 69 Camaro Renderings you have done). I feel certain that you did not get the permission of these Rather large corporations to reproduce their images. Now Lets see, you can charge for your work, you state a price and we in the hobby agree to trade you money for your work. BUT, when you set out to profit from your work (the method)and somehow claim ownership in the images, you have crossed a major line. The process(method) is where your profit should end. When you set out to make money on the contents of your work-IE images of Camaros, Chevelles, Mustangs, etc., well friend 350.00 is not nearly enough to have your financial lower intestines handed to you on a platter by a fleet of lawyers out to literally protect every penny of non authorized profit that is not going in their collective pockets. Trust me on this.

You need to pick a different Hill to die on my friend.

[Musclerodz]

Musclerodz wrote originally:

When are we going to get "Kris" to make a calender.

Being that I originally brought this up in this thread, I guess I should add my .02 on this difference of opinions. I can understand both sides of this arguement being a customer of Kris' and a self employed person. From the customer side I feel I should have equal rights to my product to do with what I want. The people that have made posters have done it to share in their joy of their car with their friends. Nothing has been for profit, mostly a loss. From the business side I can side with Kris that I would like to be able to profit from my work. Where you are in error Kris is not realizing how close you are to making it huge with your style of artwork, and not being prepared legally to protect yourself.

I don't think Scott or Jody had the intention of producing calenders for profit. No different from the posters, they would have been made limited availability to the great people of this site. I brought up a calander 6-8 months ago over at PT.com but at the time I don't think there was quite enough PT cars to do a calender. Now here we are 8 months later with plenty of kick a$$ cars on this one site to do a calender and we are still asking for a calender. Maybe it is something to stop and consider very hard.

Personally, I think you should have mentioned at the time you did each persons car that as long as nobody was profiting from the distribution of your work, you would not have an issue with it. On the other hand, your work is not copyrighted, plus you can't control what people do with the images once they leave your hand. I would definitely seek legal counsel as to what you can and can't control. I am very happy with what I got and enjoy viewing all the cars you have done for other people. As per my quick phone call earlier today, I am still interest in having more work done. Let this be a wake up call for everybody so we can go on enjoying our addictions in peace.

Mike

[Kris Horton]

Okay, I'm going to try my absolute hardest to remain tactful while responding the last few posts. Something that Jake sure wasn't capable of.

I want to say first and foremost, I did not come in here claiming outright ownership of ANY of my artwork, if I did or if it seemed that way, I apologize. I was merely stating, though I should have made it a question, that I believe I have SOME rights to the work. For example, using it in a calender that I could produce.

Next, I want to address Jake's rant. I don't think some of the things that Jake said were out of line. I agreed to some of them even. But A LOT of the comments he made were out of line. I invite you to come watch me work, Jake. By all means, come and watch how fast I can do a car and how rediculously overpriced I am for what I do.

All the posts asking where I am? While you're here watching me work, come look at how full my inbox is, whether it's replies from my customers letting me know what changes to make or random e-mails asking me how I do my work and where they can download the software from. There was also a period where I would get 20 e-mails a day JUST from Brazilian car guys because some of my work was published in one of their magazines. Fact is, I get a lot of e-mails and I don't always get to answer all of them because I'm busy doing what I should "stick to." I can't afford to hire a secretary to keep me on track and the reason I take longer sometimes to turn out a rendering is because the person I am doing the car for can not always get back to me right away or it is taking time getting the color "just right." I believe in getting the renderings as perfect as I can for customers instead of just working for a few weeks and giving them the final product. ASK ANYONE. I have never just sat back and said "eh, good enough."

Ask Jody even. It took me a LONG time to get the right orange. He, Scott, and I spent a long time trying to get it to look just right. I didn't just say "well, it gets the point across." I will tweak renderings to no end so that it's what the customer wants. That's why it takes so long. Don't criticize me if you've never worked with me. It's not your place to judge how long it takes me. Have you e-mailed me for renderings? Did I take a long time getting back to you? If so, I apologize, but don't make it your mission to criticize me for being busy.

As to this:

"Kris stick to renditions, you have hard enough time getting them done."
Thank you. You're a real class act.

Jim,

I am not setting out to profit from WHAT I'm rendering, but the renderings themselves. I'm sure that if someone goes to the racetrack and photographs cars and sells the IMAGES to a magazine, it is no different from what I am doing. GM or Ford won't bang down their door for photographing something of theirs and then selling the pictures of it.

So I am in the wrong here just as much as Chip Foose, Mike Desmond, John McBride, and all the other artists out there are if they want to sell their images.

What about the paintings you see in the poster/print shops of cars sitting at a diner. They are selling MASS produced prints of painted cars that look EXACTLY like their real-life counterparts. I don't see an "Officially Licensed by Ford, GM, and MOPAR" sticker on those prints. I'm not trying to get too technical, but I'm trying to make a point. I do understand what you mean by what I am doing is selling a service.

Mike,

I appreciate that you took the time to argue both sides. Most everyone else seems to think this issue is pretty one-sided. I know that the guys had no intention of profiting from the calenders. They have been very respectful of that.

If they wanted to turn a profit from my work, they could have done it long ago. Have I ever seen an invoice for the printing of the posters? No. I never had a doubt in my mind that Scott was being honest and not trying to turn a profit. I have met him in person and spoken with him on the phone. He's a stand-up guy and I trust him, despite only having met him a few times. In fact, the whole thing started because he was sitting at the same table as my girlfriend and I and she started talking to him. Scott had brought me over to PT.com as well way back when my 5th Gen Camaro hit the net. I can pretty much say that he and I go way back.

Back on topic though, I don't in any way think that the posters or the calender would serve more of a purpose than advertising for Scott and I. Where this whole mess started was when I mentioned that I would like a buck or two per calender. I have no problem letting that idea go, not at all. In fact, at this point, I encourage Scott and Jody to move forward with the idea and to let me know how I can help. Do I think it'd be nice to make an extra couple of bucks because I created the images? Yeah. Of course. But oh well. If this is going to be such a sore subject, I'll gladly step back and avoid having it get any uglier. I appreciate the good word-of-mouth that you guys have given me and I hope it continues to help me out. I don't want to lose any friends over some money.

I Jake dislikes me that much though, so be it, but hopefully he can see in this post that I am not just in it for money and that I am only human. The offer to watch me work still stands. If you're ever in my boring neck of the woods, call me and I'll let you sit in on one of my projects, including all the waiting I do and all the trial and error involved. Believe me, if it was only a matter of changing colors and wheels, I'd have more time to spend with my girlfriend.

That said, hopefully I have made amends where necessary and made my case on some issues.

The defense rests.

Kris

[erin ray]

Scott I finally joined. I told you at the PT.com dinner that I would join your site and this thread made me get my butt in gear and do it.

Ok I'd like to say that for those of you that don'd know me, I'm Kris' girlfriend. And yes my post probably will be biased. But for the heck of it here is my .02

Kris and I share opposing views on some of what is being said. I believe that the biggest issue is that anyone would use his renderings for a profit. I don't believe ANYONE who currently has a rendering of his or is in the process of getting one would do that, but there may be people down the line that might and he needs to be cautious now about those possible people in the future.

I don't believe he sould be or is out there to make a profit on every little thing. For Kris it is all about the customers. I hope that you all know that. He had his phone on all day on Thanksgiving if anyone had decieded to call. He works every single day even when he is sick, on the weekends and on holidays. I could even make a safe bet that he will be working on Christmas.

As to the comment on his renderings taking too long... I will have you know that Kris is a perfectionist. I have watched him work and it is facsinating. He will spend 3 hours in photoshop cleaning up the shadowing and imperfections on one rendering that took 3 hours to render only to find that it is the wrong color. Back to the drawing board so to speak. I've also been witness to flukes in the program where sometimes part of the car will go missing but one can't tell until half of the rendering is finished. With just a paint and wheel change he could go through 5- 10 renderings easily. Thats 30-60 hours.
Even here Stuart says: "That is what has taken some time to get this done, is every time I talk to him I have another idea." If you havent' worked with him then you can't judge.

I think that what was said by Kris was misunderstood. And hopefully in the last post was cleared up. I think the big thing is that he is shown recognition for the artwork. Like a lateral-g calendar saying all images by Kris horton and the website. I think the calendars are a cool idea it's just I don't think anyone should make a profit off of them.

I do believe that Jody is right though that if he gets a profit out of the calendars that everyone should get a profit of them.

I really hope I didn't offend anyone or step on anyone's toes on my first post. But in my defense the opening night of my show tonight didn't go as well for me so I already wasn't in a good mood. Thanks for reading.

Erin

[68protouring454]

"no one should make a profit" what the hell about all the leg work and money up front scott and others have had to dish out??? if scott produced a calander and did all the work of putting it together, then he should at least break even charging for his time and money out,he is only breaking even on money out, i can bet you a buck he adds nothing to it for his time and to think you want to make a profit on someone elses work!!!!! hell thats what yor bitchin about now, someone else making money off your work,
no i have never emailed you or etc, now i do not think i ever would or would tell anyone about you, afraid that you would own their rendering forever,
you should be happy that he wants to make a calender for you, **** the profit, your name will be on each pic and he would put your web site on there too, no questions asked, thats what you should of asked is that your name be on each pic whether its small or not and your web site be in the calender somewhere.
that should have you so happy that someone wants to promote your work for you, and guess what no cost to you, man do i have something wrong with me?? or is that a ****ing awesome deal.
next time someone wants to put a vinyl sticker in there windshield with my shop name in it, i am going to say NO, i don't want the free or almost free advertising, someone might make money off it!!!
word of mouth is some of the best advertising you can get, i would kill to have someone want to push my work for me, especially for free.
**** come to think of it , Do you work for boyd coddington??? you kinda sound like blue bear??? wait are you blue bear??
i am outa line, but you were outa line about 2 pages back in this thread

[Kris Horton]

Jake, did you even bother reading the last 2 posts? It seems more like you just felt compelled to ride in on your white horse and start badmouthing me like I am the world's biggest a$$hole. It seems more like you've got some vandetta against me. I've already stated that I've changed my views and wisened up. I don't need you coming back and being a complete jerk to me because of something I said several posts ago. Looks like one of us knows how to move on and wise up.

It's starting to get ridiculous. If I was looking for a fight, my last post would have been a lot shorter and had a lot more bleeped out words. I'm not like that though. I like to think I have some class, unless I am mistaken.

The original plan behind Scott's renderings was to do a poster. I realize he spent a lot of time and money trying to get the poster right, but that's not to say I didn't do a lot of extra work as well. He spent the money, and I spent the time doing several iterations of the poster, which cost me time, which equals it costing me money. I didn't gripe about it, nor did Scott. I think that he realized what he was getting into when doing it and I hung with him until we got it right. Don't lecture me about all the money he lost. If it's a big issue for Scott, he will mention it. Breaking even and making a profit are completely different things. If Scott feels that he is owed for taking the time to do all of this, then by all means.

Again, I didn't want to make this a big argument, but I also couldn't let another one of your rude, tactless posts go without a reply. I'm not going to make myself out to be something I'm not, but I'm also not going to stand by and let you insult me.

For the record, I'm not Blue Bear. Never have been, never will be.

On a side note to everyone else, sorry for this mess happening in a thread about Stuart's car. I'm glad everyone likes the renderings, but the credit goes to DSE for building a great car. I'm just some punk kid.

Kris

[68protouring454]

i did not lecture anyone,nor did i ride a white horse, it was brown, i stated facts, and only what you had already said, for scotts sake i am not going to go any further as i could make it very ugly very quick, there is no vendetta towards you, i just think its bs you came on the site and stated that **** rather than talk to scott or jody behind the scenes as they are the ones who got posters going, thats how it should have been handled.
goodluck to you, just have your gf fight your battles from now on, i am done, sorry scott

[Kris Horton]

Hey, leave my girlfriend out of this. She joined AND posted on her own free will. She had an opinion and stated it. I didn't ask her to do it. I'm fighting my own battle. Unfortunately it's against some arrogant jerk that won't stop taking cheap shots at me. I've already said that I didn't want this to get ugly, but you wanted to come in, take one last shot at me and then act like you're mature for "dropping it." The only way you can make it "very ugly" is by taking some more pot shots at me and talking more about things you can't even begin to understand. You're just proving to everyone else here that you're a jackass. Everyone else has at least been mature about this matter.

The reason I posted on here instead of e-mailing was to make my opinion known. It wasn't a matter of disrespect, I just didn't want the idea to build up too much steam before I had a chance to chime in.

You need to stop acting like you've got me all figured out. You've never met me (which I'm sure is just fine with you at this point) but a lot of the members here have met me and know me for who I am. I can't vouche for everyone, but I'm pretty sure you're the only one around here that hates me.

Kris