Save GM

[jeff hanson]

Everyone who thinks that this is a bailout of GM needs to realize that it's a loan, that in turn will bail out hundreds of thousands of people from losing there jobs. The effects of not getting this "loan" will be catastrophic.

As far as the quality goes. We ARE just as good or better than most. The days of old are gone. The sooner people realize this, the sooner we will start to get this country back on track. I honestly do not understand how any American can walk into a Toyota, Honda, Nissan, etc. store right now. It boggles my mind how much lack of support for this country there is. The only good thing I can say about them is that they forced us to step up our game, and we did! Now we have the best warranty in the industry to prove that we can build a quality vehicle and back it up, yet people still buy imports!

OK, I'm done....BUY AMERICAN!

[Rhino]

The problem is purely of perception. Perception is everything, no matter what industry you're in. If the mass populace thinks it's true... it is true to that group. Improving the product is easy, improving the perception is a hard, long road.
The US manufactures are making huge strides in improving their quality. Unfortunately it's falling on the public's deaf ears. Until there is something to shake up the market (chp 11 or a huge reorg), the public won't notice and that perception won't change.

I'm a car nut that has followed the new gen Malibu's story and mentioned it to everyone I can. I love the car. Even though I know it's improved, and have seen it's quality first hand, the nameplate has a horrible stigma. My initial reation is that it's a "cheap, plastic filled rental car." Only after that do I remember it's improvements.
The public's perception of the Accord nameplate is quality. At this point Honda can do whatever they want with it, and the public will happily move right along with them.

America has turned into a bunch of sheep.

[sniper]

Originally Posted by jeff hanson

Everyone who thinks that this is a bailout of GM needs to realize that it's a loan, that in turn will bail out hundreds of thousands of people from losing there jobs. The effects of not getting this "loan" will be catastrophic.

You mean that those employees might feel what most others that are not making $40 and up an hour, feel?

Originally Posted by jeff hanson

As far as the quality goes. We ARE just as good or better than most. The days of old are gone. The sooner people realize this, the sooner we will start to get this country back on track. I honestly do not understand how any American can walk into a Toyota, Honda, Nissan, etc. store right now. It boggles my mind how much lack of support for this country there is. The only good thing I can say about them is that they forced us to step up our game, and we did! Now we have the best warranty in the industry to prove that we can build a quality vehicle and back it up, yet people still buy imports!

OK, I'm done....BUY AMERICAN!

Originally Posted by Rhino

America has turned into a bunch of sheep.

How can you honestly sit there and blame the consumer for not buying these cars? And take no responsibility for the products they are presenting to us for purchase?

Just as an example; How long has honda been building 30+ mpg cars that don't look like the geo metro? Besides buying a foreign car is just as much buying american anymore as buying a GM.

[rwhite692]

Listening to a lot of the testimony on Capitol Hill this AM, it is just amazing how completely ignorant most of our elected officials are as to the size and scope of the American automobile industry and all the associated industries.

They just don't understand it.

The overwhelming position seems to be "It's simple, let them fail and restructure under Chapter 11".

What they don't realize is that if they go into Bankruptcy, their sales won't recover...no one is going to buy "durable goods" products from companies that are in Chapter 11. Suppliers will cease to extend credit terms to them, and will demand payment on delivery, and the cash burn rate alone would be enough to kill them.

Not to mention how everyone conveniently forgets how the industry gave it's support to the war effort during WWII...and how much technology these three have contributed across ALL forms of industry...

It's all "what have you done for me lately"...What a piss-poor state of affairs...

The big three unfortunately also have not done a good job these last couple of days with their PR strategy of selling the whole idea of getting these loans, to the legislators or the public...Listening to them testify this AM, They are not being very humble in the way that they are asking for this help...Their testimony has had this kind of "we are entitled to this, we are too big to fail, you just have to do this" kind of vibe...and they are coming across as unprepared for the testimony. Painful to listen to...

Unfortunately what worked for AIG, etc a month or so ago, has now completely fallen out of favor emotionally with the legislators and the public so a different strategy is needed...

[Rhino]

Originally Posted by sniper

How can you honestly sit there and blame the consumer for not buying these cars? And take no responsibility for the products they are presenting to us for purchase?

Just as an example; How long has honda been building 30+ mpg cars that don't look like the geo metro? Besides buying a foreign car is just as much buying american anymore as buying a GM.

You obviously missed the total point of my post.

Whether or not many people notice, the US automakers have made huge strides in quality. Take a look at GM interiors within the past 2 years vs a few years prior. The quality gap between the US and foreign manufactures has been closed significantly.
My point was that the public's perception won't change until there is a huge shake up. The general public is currently blind to the increases in quality no matter what the automakers are currently doing.
While their quality has rose, their perception is still the same.

It doesn't matter how long honda's been doing it... what I'm talking about is the fact that the GM is almost on par with them and gaining fast. GM's perception in your eyes still hasn't changed even though they've remedied the situation. If you think Buying a Honda is the same as buying GM, you really need to follow the money trail to see where it ends up.

[sniper]

Originally Posted by Rhino

You obviously missed the total point of my post.

Whether or not many people notice, the US automakers have made huge strides in quality. Take a look at GM interiors within the past 2 years vs a few years prior. The quality gap between the US and foreign manufactures has been closed significantly.
My point was that the public's perception won't change until there is a huge shake up. The general public is currently blind to the increases in quality no matter what the automakers are currently doing.
While their quality has rose, their perception is still the same.

I missed nothing. This argument is not about quality. Those huge strides have come real damn late. And if that is in fact true, then restructuring under chalter 11 might be exactly what they need to do. Reduce the number of and types of vehicles and sell the **** out of those to get back on their feet.

Originally Posted by Rhino

It doesn't matter how long honda's been doing it... what I'm talking about is the fact that the GM is almost on par with them and gaining fast. GM's perception in your eyes still hasn't changed even though they've remedied the situation.

Don't talk about what's in my eyes. I own a ford, chevy, jeep, hond and a damn yamaha bike.

Originally Posted by Rhino

If you think Buying a Honda is the same as buying GM, you really need to follow the money trail to see where it ends up.

I DON'T CARE WHERE THE PROFITS GO! It's none of my business. If any of us really did we wouldn't be buying so many chinese goods. And if you are buying those you are just blowing smoke.

If you cannot stay on topic then there is never anything that anyone can say that will affect your way of thinking. The idea of where the profits go, is an ENTIRELY different subject. But you cannot deny that there are thousands of jobs at foreign manufactures right here in the US. Would you rather them go under and lose those jobs, even though they are producing cars people want, so that you can keep your job?

You and the big 3 are relying on blind loyalty. Sorry, but that is gone.

[Vegas69]

I'm not against the loan so to speak. It's got to be done the right way. There needs to be specific language on how the money can be used. Let's face it....if one of them goes under then we won't be paid in full. The loan should come with forced changes in the way they do business as well. The execs and union should make some concessions along with the workers. The worst thing is a loan with lousy conditions attached. I agree that they needs to blow out some of the excess inventory and recover some of there own liquidity. Stop producing vehicles that are saturated. I just don't understand how all three can be going broke. We just went through a huge car buying revolution. How about socking away some reserves. Sounds a lot like the Real Estate/Banking situation doesn't it. Feast on the good times and not prepare for the bad.

[trapin]

Originally Posted by sniper

Your too close to this situtation to have an objective view. I find it ironic that you are up in arms about people not wanting to bail your company out, but where is your anger at your company for not building products that people WANT!

On the contrary, I'm close enough to the situation where I've almost been fired for my distaste of this company's past sins. Money wasted on programs that never saw the light of day when it was obvious they were a waste of time. I was there when the Aztek clay model was sitting in the hallway covered in Dynoc for a Board Of Directors show and I blasted the thing in front of everyone. Hell I've even been yelled at on this website and PT.com for my attitude towards GM's business decisions. I am no "yes man". I spoke up, I was subjective, and I got hit in the mouth for it. Not to stroke my ego or to hear myself talk, but because I care a great deal about my company's future because it impacts MY future and MY FAMILY'S future. We've come a long way since then and I truly believe we are building the best cars we ever have in our 100 years. I've done my part. And by the way...8.5 million people wanted our products last year. Not bad...but room for improvement.

Originally Posted by sniper

Those retireees you speak of are a huge part of the problem. They are drawing huge pensions and are providing nothing in return, hence the word pension. Can you agree that, that business model is a failed one?
Can you agree that NO company can survive by paying retired employees for the rest of their lives and still be a profitable business?

I am in favor of health care being ceased for retirees (as I won't get it when I retire due to my hire-in date) but I believe you have to leave the pensions alone. The pension money is not free money....those retirees paid into that pension all throughout their careers. They have it coming, it's their money.

Originally Posted by sniper

If GM went under those retirees wouldn't lose 75% of their pensions, that is just a false. Would those accounts not get turned over to the Pension benefit guarentee corporation? Why would GM going into bankruptcy harm it? It's supposed to be an instrument of accoutnablitity for a company to rebound.

Based on the conversations I've had with a number of retirees that I know, they are all telling me that if GM were to go Chapter 7 then they would indeed lose anywhere from 50%-70% of their pensions. I trust what they're saying because I know these old-timers have probably been doing their homework amidst all this chaos and that the Pension Benefit Gauranty Corporation does not necessarily guarantee you will get your full pension. Read the site, it's in the FAQ.

Originally Posted by sniper

Is there nothing they can cut to stay in business and again become profitable.

Yeah....my job. Hence the pissed off attitude. I have a family too ya know.

[Rhino]

Originally Posted by sniper

I missed nothing. This argument is not about quality. Those huge strides have come real damn late. And if that is in fact true, then restructuring under chalter 11 might be exactly what they need to do. Reduce the number of and types of vehicles and sell the **** out of those to get back on their feet.

Don't talk about what's in my eyes. I own a ford, chevy, jeep, hond and a damn yamaha bike.

I DON'T CARE WHERE THE PROFITS GO! It's none of my business. If any of us really did we wouldn't be buying so many chinese goods. And if you are buying those you are just blowing smoke.

If you cannot stay on topic then there is never anything that anyone can say that will affect your way of thinking. The idea of where the profits go, is an ENTIRELY different subject. But you cannot deny that there are thousands of jobs at foreign manufactures right here in the US. Would you rather them go under and lose those jobs, even though they are producing cars people want, so that you can keep your job?

You and the big 3 are relying on blind loyalty. Sorry, but that is gone.

When I read your response to my post I misread your response. That's why I was speaking of quality.

I don't agree with your argument that buying foreign is just as much American as a US manufacturer. In my eyes, if more money ends up in foreign hands, buying an import is not the same as buying American.
The reason I bring profit into it is that the end location of the money is really all that separates all auto manufacturers. They're all building them in the US with Euro designs and engines built on a completely different continent.
I don't want the imports to go under either. They've increased competition, which is ultimately good for the consumer. As you have already pointed out they also create US jobs as well.

Even though GM is where my heart lies, I'm far from blind to the competition. I own Chevrolet, Pontiac, Dodge, Jeep, and a Suzuki bike. Through my Fiance I have access to Honda and Acura. From my experience so far, honda hasn't treated us any better than GM or Chrysler.

Gm isnt going bankrupt because of quality, because for the past decade when all the "rich" people were buying hummers and vettes on gmac the quality was good enough for them.Gm's looming failure is due the credit crisis/recession whatever you want to call it not bad quality.and running out and buying gm right now will not solve anything, in fact its what got us into this mess.