Somebody FREAKIN shoot me!!!!

[realcoray]

Originally Posted by Sieg

Greg - I'd say a little out of touch due to living in major financial hubs in the country. $50-$75K is an above average salary in Eugene/Springfield, not many over $150K. Based on advertising demographics by zip code that I've contracted. $50-$75K is more like and average household income.

It's upper middle class in many areas, but it's comparable to many private employers.

I fall more with Greg on this, their incomes are not necessarily out of alignment, it's really that they have a pension at all. That isn't something you can just turn off overnight but you do something like the automakers did, say from this point forward everyone gets a 401k or similar with some matching, and the other people we just deal with the fact they will get a pension.

I also laugh at the idea that private industry is somehow more efficient than government. Every place I've ever worked, large and small has had tons of waste and inefficiencies. The larger they are, the worse it seems to be but even 10 man companies aren't necessarily paragons of efficiency.

[Shmoov69]

Yes Greg, you're out of touch!!! LoL!!

At least in the Midwest, I'd say average "household" is well under $100K

[IMPALA MAN]

Originally Posted by realcoray

It's upper middle class in many areas, but it's comparable to many private employers.

I fall more with Greg on this, their incomes are not necessarily out of alignment, it's really that they have a pension at all. That isn't something you can just turn off overnight but you do something like the automakers did, say from this point forward everyone gets a 401k or similar with some matching, and the other people we just deal with the fact they will get a pension.

I also laugh at the idea that private industry is somehow more efficient than government. Every place I've ever worked, large and small has had tons of waste and inefficiencies. The larger they are, the worse it seems to be but even 10 man companies aren't necessarily paragons of efficiency.

Only one difference with private industry. They go bankrupt and cease doing business due to a word called consiquences. They also don't have the option of just borrowing more.

True, I have seen some pretty pathetic waste in the private sector. However as Americans we have the right to not invest in companies like this and still live in America.
With the government we are forced to invest in the government, and the only way to get out of it is move to another country.

This sounds a little like the Hitler / Volkswagen story.

I know, I know, if ya don't like it, move to another country.

[Mkelcy]

Originally Posted by GregWeld

This is why I said the Mkelcy doesn't understand who really creates jobs - which in turn creates taxes...

Spending on homes, furniture, appliances, cars, groceries, dental braces, etc. is what creates jobs. Only a fool believes that supply creates demand. Demand is what makes the economy go, not supply - and demand is created by the 47%, not the 1%. The wealthy have prospered during this downturn, yet I don't see the economy recovering; perhaps that's because the top 1% or top 30% really aren't the economy. As difficult as it may be for a Fox News adherent to believe, it may be that everyone needs to do well for all of us to do well. More higher incomes for all will do a lot to increase tax revenues - but that would mean senior corporate executives being paid what they produce - like their employees - rather than what they can convince their cronies on the board compensation committees (with the implicit "you wash my back, I'll wash yours" agreement) they're worth.

Originally Posted by GregWeld

Obamacare didn't address the COSTS of healthcare.... if it had - I'd have been all for it. Instead he just created an entire new government bureaucracy.

If increased access to health care doesn't reduce costs, then I don't understand anything about the healthcare system. In California - as in the rest of the country - the single most expensive point of entry into the healthcare system is the ER. The fewer people whose only access to the healthcare system is the ER the better - and cheaper - for all of us. Obamacare is a big step in that direction. If you really want to reduce health care costs, eliminate the insurance companies and go to a single payer system. The 15% the healthcare companies can keep does nothing for health care and is entirely used for marketing and corporate profits.

Perhaps folks should educate themselves before pretending to have all the answers for the rest of us.

[camcojb]

I have been with Blue Cross the last 6 years. The highest increase year to year has been 5%. Just got the new rates for next year.................. 17% increase. And they even listed Obamacare as one of the reasons for the large increase. I did not hit a new age group, nothing changed. Didn't use my insurance at all the last three years.

I would like to know how forcing an insurance policy to have minimum specs like pre-natal care (which my wife and I do not need), or no co-pays on certain things, take on any pre-existing conditions, etc. would NOT raise the cost of the insurance. Maybe I don't understand how it works. But when you add on the extras and require everybody regardless of health to be covered, the price of the policy has to go up.

[syborg tt]

Originally Posted by Mkelcy

Spending on homes, furniture, appliances, cars, groceries, dental braces, etc. is what creates jobs. Only a fool believes that supply creates demand. Demand is what makes the economy go, not supply - and demand is created by the 47%, not the 1%. The wealthy have prospered during this downturn, yet I don't see the economy recovering; perhaps that's because the top 1% or top 30% really aren't the economy. As difficult as it may be for a Fox News adherent to believe, it may be that everyone needs to do well for all of us to do well. More higher incomes for all will do a lot to increase tax revenues - but that would mean senior corporate executives being paid what they produce - like their employees - rather than what they can convince their cronies on the board compensation committees (with the implicit "you wash my back, I'll wash yours" agreement) they're worth.



If increased access to health care doesn't reduce costs, then I don't understand anything about the healthcare system. In California - as in the rest of the country - the single most expensive point of entry into the healthcare system is the ER. The fewer people whose only access to the healthcare system is the ER the better - and cheaper - for all of us. Obamacare is a big step in that direction. If you really want to reduce health care costs, eliminate the insurance companies and go to a single payer system. The 15% the healthcare companies can keep does nothing for health care and is entirely used for marketing and corporate profits.

Perhaps folks should educate themselves before pretending to have all the answers for the rest of us.

Mike first off thank you for actually forcing me to use a dictionary today. I looked up the word adherent. I watch fox and after about two weeks I disliked Obama a little more then I did before watching fox. Then I went to MSN and realized they hate anyone that has been successful so I stopped watching them. Then I went to CNN and realized there just idiots.

So in the end where do we get the "said education" you are talking about?

I can tell you first hand that the ER isn't the most expensive place in a hospital. I just finished 4 rounds of FullFox Chemo at $9,000 a treatment and have switched to the Oral version of Xeloda Chemo at $4,000 a treatment which doesn't include blood work, labs and meeting with my Oncologist.

So I a living the medical nightmare right now and I am pretty confident that Obama Care isn't going to do anything for all of the bills coming in my direction.

The good news is I do have insurance at just shy of $26,000.00 a year with a $5,000.00 deductable. Why is it high well because I am a small business owner and we just don't get the good rates. We even looked and switching insurance companies to my wife's. Sorry sir your pre-existing condtions are not covered (previous cancer). The good new on that front in 2014 they will have to insure me but at what costs. My current agent is expecting our policy to go up not down by at least 8 to 10 percent.

So like Greg said they need to fix the cost. Why do i get a bill for $10,000 then after adjustment the bill is $4,000.00 ?

On a side note I did watch something very interesting on MSN about the rising cost of Seniors that will soon be on medicare & SS and good news they are living longer which means that we the people still working will be paying for them which I am more then ok with. Problem is the only way to pay for them is to increase our taxes on everyone. The 1% and now the 2% don't make enough to cover the rising cost.

[GregWeld]

Originally Posted by Mkelcy

Spending on homes, furniture, appliances, cars, groceries, dental braces, etc. is what creates jobs. Only a fool believes that supply creates demand. Demand is what makes the economy go, not supply - and demand is created by the 47%, not the 1%. The wealthy have prospered during this downturn, yet I don't see the economy recovering; perhaps that's because the top 1% or top 30% really aren't the economy. As difficult as it may be for a Fox News adherent to believe, it may be that everyone needs to do well for all of us to do well. More higher incomes for all will do a lot to increase tax revenues - but that would mean senior corporate executives being paid what they produce - like their employees - rather than what they can convince their cronies on the board compensation committees (with the implicit "you wash my back, I'll wash yours" agreement) they're worth.



If increased access to health care doesn't reduce costs, then I don't understand anything about the healthcare system. In California - as in the rest of the country - the single most expensive point of entry into the healthcare system is the ER. The fewer people whose only access to the healthcare system is the ER the better - and cheaper - for all of us. Obamacare is a big step in that direction. If you really want to reduce health care costs, eliminate the insurance companies and go to a single payer system. The 15% the healthcare companies can keep does nothing for health care and is entirely used for marketing and corporate profits.

Perhaps folks should educate themselves before pretending to have all the answers for the rest of us.

Okay -- You've won!

In the morning I'm going to donate all my worldly possessions to the Goodwill... and I'm going to live in a cardboard box. Surely that will make me see the light.

[syborg tt]

Originally Posted by GregWeld

Okay -- You've won!

In the morning I'm going to donate all my worldly possessions to the Goodwill... and I'm going to live in a cardboard box. Surely that will make me see the light.

Can I just have the Mustang - Pretty please. I will treat it nice I promise

[camcojb]

Originally Posted by syborg tt

Can I just have the Mustang - Pretty please. I will treat it nice I promise

I wanted it before you.

[syborg tt]

Originally Posted by camcojb

I wanted it before you.

Since I live in the Midwest maybe we can share the car. We only have about 4 good months. So I'll keep it for four months and you can have it for the other eight. I'd even be willing to split the insurance 50/50