I knew I liked Adam Carolla for some reason.. His take on the OWS Generation. LOL

[realcoray]

I don't disagree with Adam about the people you see that represent the protestors. I remember seeing a ton of pictures of people who were like 100k in debt because of school, getting english degrees and blaming anyone but themselves. I understand at that age you have no concept of the real world but people need to accept responsibility for the decisions they make.

However at the same time, it's terribly naive to say, oh work hard and you can be one of the richest people. Nothing is ever simple, especially getting rich and then being able to enjoy it (saving until you're 80 and having a million dollars then doesn't count).

Why should someone who makes tens of millions of dollars a year pay a lower percentage than I do? Because they can afford a team of lawyers? Why should companies like Boeing get tax refunds instead of paying taxes when the small company I work for ends up paying 35%?

The game is rigged and no, it's not even in the favor of low buck millionaires, let alone someone making the median of like 50k.

[GregWeld]

Originally Posted by realcoray

I don't disagree with Adam about the people you see that represent the protestors. I remember seeing a ton of pictures of people who were like 100k in debt because of school, getting english degrees and blaming anyone but themselves. I understand at that age you have no concept of the real world but people need to accept responsibility for the decisions they make.

However at the same time, it's terribly naive to say, oh work hard and you can be one of the richest people. Nothing is ever simple, especially getting rich and then being able to enjoy it (saving until you're 80 and having a million dollars then doesn't count).

Why should someone who makes tens of millions of dollars a year pay a lower percentage than I do? Because they can afford a team of lawyers? Why should companies like Boeing get tax refunds instead of paying taxes when the small company I work for ends up paying 35%?

The game is rigged and no, it's not even in the favor of low buck millionaires, let alone someone making the median of like 50k.

I think the facts need to be checked before making statements like this. I'm not picking a fight with you personally -- but I hear this same crap all the time and it's just that. Pure crap.

There is a good article - that I found by simply asking GOOGLE - DO WEALTHY PEOPLE PAY LESS TAXES... and I picked kinda the first one on the list that looked legitimate.

Here's the link to that - and it's just one article of MANY.. that use FACTS (mostly the U.S. Governments own data) to dispel this misinformation.


http://www.theatlantic.com/business/...-taxes/245531/



Personally -- I live off my dividend and bond income, and income from an apartment complex... and yes -- it's a very large income. And yes - the taxes on dividends are "only" 15% (Qualified dividends) and the taxes on my MUNI BONDS are tax free. For that "tax free" status - I receive substantially less income (on a laddered bond portfolio I get about 4% in interest). Now -- I'm not going to write a book on INVESTING and returns and taxes etc. But I will tell you that if people like me didn't buy school bonds - and road improvement bonds etc... then you wouldn't be very happy because there'd be NO MONEY to build all that stuff you enjoy. There is a direct benefit to society by cities/counties/state governments paying a lower financing cost... In order to attract people to invest in these (bonds) - they come with the tax free status. BUT -- there's always a big BUTT in the room.... I'm an "investor".... some of those "investments" are complete busts... I don't get any write off for those. Oh yeah -- I can claim 3 grand a year - for about eternity... Some investments return some of my money after 4 or 5 years... and once in awhile you hit the mother lode. Now - I'm going to attempt to explain the VALUE to society with one of my latest "hits" as a real life example. An investment 6+ years ago in a start up that had about 50 employees - but was running low on cash - needed some "help" both financially and with management (that's what they get when guys like me invest - they get MONEY and they get BRAINS and they get CONNECTIONS). That company was sold last year when it had almost 500 employees -- 100 of which came away with ONE MILLION DOLLARS OR MORE.... Many more had somewhere less than a million bucks... some poor bastard might have "only" got half a million. What a shame. You know what? All of the cash was taxed at ORDINARY INCOME TAX RATES. The return on my initial investment was substantial -- it was taxed as LONG TERM CAPITAL GAINS (15%) -- but the other shares I owned were taxed at ordinary income. Several people could retire on what I paid in income taxes last year - and several more could on what my tax bill will be this year. If you want to calculate in absolute percentage terms I paid about 32%...


I guess this discussion is really about a battle between the haves and the have nots... and I just don't think it's as simple as that. There is a reason why people succeed and some don't. Education, willingness to 'gamble' on their careers (I know people that have turned down great opportunities because they didn't want to move)... willingness to learn... and grow...the ability to SEE the opportunity that is before them. Let's take a framer... some guys will always just be framers. What is it that separates them from the guy that started as a framer and is now a general contractor?

To me - it's kinda like the people that only see NASA as a giant play toy for the astronauts. They see no purpose in building things to fly to outer space. But others see it for all the "stuff" that they've invented during their attempts to do more and fly farther. I can't name 'em - but I know there's just a whole slew of stuff that we wouldn't have without NASA. Another example is auto racing. Many people just see it as a giant toy box - yet "we" here know about the stuff they do that trickles down to todays cars.

It's just never as simple as "1% vs the 99%".... or the "I pay more (or less) taxes than someone else".


Hope that makes some "sense"... sometimes there just isn't a good or perfect explanation. This isn't the old communist China... where you had the rulers that lived like kings and "everybody else". It's America... there's a reward for risk - there's "incentives" to invest - there's opportunity to change your own life. Sometimes those risks/changes don't work out... some people get up and do it all over again - some give up and whine - some keep walkin' around wishin' and hoping' but never taking action. Some just blame others for their lives not going per their dreams.

[camcojb]

Originally Posted by GregWeld

I think the facts need to be checked before making statements like this. I'm not picking a fight with you personally -- but I hear this same crap all the time and it's just that. Pure crap.

There is a good article - that I found by simply asking GOOGLE - DO WEALTHY PEOPLE PAY LESS TAXES... and I picked kinda the first one on the list that looked legitimate.

Here's the link to that - and it's just one article of MANY.. that use FACTS (mostly the U.S. Governments own data) to dispel this misinformation.


http://www.theatlantic.com/business/...-taxes/245531/



Personally -- I live off my dividend and bond income, and income from an apartment complex... and yes -- it's a very large income. And yes - the taxes on dividends are "only" 15% (Qualified dividends) and the taxes on my MUNI BONDS are tax free. For that "tax free" status - I receive substantially less income (on a laddered bond portfolio I get about 4% in interest). Now -- I'm not going to write a book on INVESTING and returns and taxes etc. But I will tell you that if people like me didn't buy school bonds - and road improvement bonds etc... then you wouldn't be very happy because there'd be NO MONEY to build all that stuff you enjoy. There is a direct benefit to society by cities/counties/state governments paying a lower financing cost... In order to attract people to invest in these (bonds) - they come with the tax free status. BUT -- there's always a big BUTT in the room.... I'm an "investor".... some of those "investments" are complete busts... I don't get any write off for those. Oh yeah -- I can claim 3 grand a year - for about eternity... Some investments return some of my money after 4 or 5 years... and once in awhile you hit the mother lode. Now - I'm going to attempt to explain the VALUE to society with one of my latest "hits" as a real life example. An investment 6+ years ago in a start up that had about 50 employees - but was running low on cash - needed some "help" both financially and with management (that's what they get when guys like me invest - they get MONEY and they get BRAINS and they get CONNECTIONS). That company was sold last year when it had almost 500 employees -- 100 of which came away with ONE MILLION DOLLARS OR MORE.... Many more had somewhere less than a million bucks... some poor bastard might have "only" got half a million. What a shame. You know what? All of the cash was taxed at ORDINARY INCOME TAX RATES. The return on my initial investment was substantial -- it was taxed as LONG TERM CAPITAL GAINS (15%) -- but the other shares I owned were taxed at ordinary income. Several people could retire on what I paid in income taxes last year - and several more could on what my tax bill will be this year. If you want to calculate in absolute percentage terms I paid about 32%...


I guess this discussion is really about a battle between the haves and the have nots... and I just don't think it's as simple as that. There is a reason why people succeed and some don't. Education, willingness to 'gamble' on their careers (I know people that have turned down great opportunities because they didn't want to move)... willingness to learn... and grow...the ability to SEE the opportunity that is before them. Let's take a framer... some guys will always just be framers. What is it that separates them from the guy that started as a framer and is now a general contractor?

To me - it's kinda like the people that only see NASA as a giant play toy for the astronauts. They see no purpose in building things to fly to outer space. But others see it for all the "stuff" that they've invented during their attempts to do more and fly farther. I can't name 'em - but I know there's just a whole slew of stuff that we wouldn't have without NASA. Another example is auto racing. Many people just see it as a giant toy box - yet "we" here know about the stuff they do that trickles down to todays cars.

It's just never as simple as "1% vs the 99%".... or the "I pay more (or less) taxes than someone else".


Hope that makes some "sense"... sometimes there just isn't a good or perfect explanation. This isn't the old communist China... where you had the rulers that lived like kings and "everybody else". It's America... there's a reward for risk - there's "incentives" to invest - there's opportunity to change your own life. Sometimes those risks/changes don't work out... some people get up and do it all over again - some give up and whine - some keep walkin' around wishin' and hoping' but never taking action. Some just blame others for their lives not going per their dreams.

very well said Greg.

[Al Moreno]

Originally Posted by camcojb

very well said Greg.

I second that, it was FREAKING poetic Greg!

What other also don't realize is that the investment could have gone the other way around and you would have lost your ass! All the employees would have just gone and found anther job.

[realcoray]

Originally Posted by GregWeld

I think the facts need to be checked before making statements like this. I'm not picking a fight with you personally -- but I hear this same crap all the time and it's just that. Pure crap.

It's just never as simple as "1% vs the 99%".... or the "I pay more (or less) taxes than someone else".

It's America... there's a reward for risk - there's "incentives" to invest - there's opportunity to change your own life. Sometimes those risks/changes don't work out... some people get up and do it all over again - some give up and whine - some keep walkin' around wishin' and hoping' but never taking action. Some just blame others for their lives not going per their dreams.

I realize now that my statement was too broad, without a doubt there are a lot of people in the so called 1% that pay a higher percentage than I do, and certainly they all pay far more on an absolute basis than I do.

And I agree 100% about most people not putting in the work or taking the chances that you need to take to be successful. This in particular bothers me with some of the protestors. If you make bad decisions you need to take some responsibility for that and I think that is one of the things that seperates people who are successful from those that aren't.

That all being said, it's a fact that the income gap has risen and while you should be able to work hard and/or take risks and see benefits from that, at what point do things get so far out of whack that it is a problem?

I think with the way wages for the middle class have gone down and earnings for the very rich have gone up, we are slightly out of whack. And no I'm not saying you would just take money from A and give it to B, nothing is ever so simple.

However, from an economics standpoint, I will say for certain that if you took 1,000$ from every rich guy, and gave it to a car guy, that the car guy would turn around and spend at least 1,500$ on car parts.

[GregWeld]

realcoray --

I was not directing my 'diatribe' at you personally even though I used your quote for the basis of my response. I was really writing more of an essay on how - in real life terms - the "wealthy" work. Of course - my examples and statements are also broadly stated. And, I too, HATE the fact that big corporations (and some individuals) sometimes get off scott free. Or hide their money overseas etc. But we have a government that is supposed to "fix" that kind of stuff... and if they don't - we need to vote the bastards out. Our problems weren't created, per se, by the big loopholes... or the corporations that asked for them.... they're allowed to do that because congress WROTE the laws that way and the President signed it (many generations of them BTW).

Our tax code is crap. Even the guys that do your taxes for a living can't figure it out. CONGRESS needs to fix that. Simplify it. Cut the loopholes. Cut the crap. I'd gladly pay a higher percentage rate. IF I thought the code was FAIR and EQUITABLE. But we all know it's not. A simple inequity that all can understand is - why should a home owner get a tax deduction - and a renter doesn't? Well somewhere back when the US Congress thought that was just the thing needed to get people to "invest" in houses (called an incentive as mentioned previously). Is it still needed today? Is it "fair"? I don't think so but I don't want to argue it either. THEY have all the numbers - they can fix the tax code.

I will add this. Remember when they decided to tack on a 10% Luxury Tax? On furs - boats - and cars over "X" amount. That was directly aimed at the "rich". The RESULT however was that "the rich" remodeled their boat rather than bought new... and the boat building industry LOST 60,000 jobs. So who got it in the backside with that brilliant "tax the rich" scheme?

Here's a very short but "current" opinion article (again found by Googling "10% luxury tax") on the proposed "jet tax". Once again if implemented the only guy that's going to suffer will be the company that builds 'em and the people that build 'em. This is why I'm saying it's just never that simple!

http://www.nationalreview.com/campai...cht-luxury-tax

In actual fact -- they (government) need to ENCOURAGE people to buy stuff. For every jet out there - it needs a pilot - it needs maintenance by trained mechanics - it has to get built to begin with - there are sales taxes paid - and license fees paid and airport parking spots rent - and taxes for take off and landing fees - and jet fuel - which needs to be put in by a guy driving a truck....

[Al Moreno]

Originally Posted by realcoray

I realize now that my statement was too broad, without a doubt there are a lot of people in the so called 1% that pay a higher percentage than I do, and certainly they all pay far more on an absolute basis than I do.

And I agree 100% about most people not putting in the work or taking the chances that you need to take to be successful. This in particular bothers me with some of the protestors. If you make bad decisions you need to take some responsibility for that and I think that is one of the things that seperates people who are successful from those that aren't.

That all being said, it's a fact that the income gap has risen and while you should be able to work hard and/or take risks and see benefits from that, at what point do things get so far out of whack that it is a problem?

I think with the way wages for the middle class have gone down and earnings for the very rich have gone up, we are slightly out of whack. And no I'm not saying you would just take money from A and give it to B, nothing is ever so simple.

However, from an economics standpoint, I will say for certain that if you took 1,000$ from every rich guy, and gave it to a car guy, that the car guy would turn around and spend at least 1,500$ on car parts.

You need to do yourself a favor and read this little book that was written in 1946. "Economics in one Lesson". By the way, you can get it free! Here's the link. http://www.fee.org/pdf/books/Economi...one_lesson.pdf


Remember nobody gets rich by "demand", you do it by "deserve".

The word "deserve" come from the rout word "de" which means "from" and "serve" which means 'service". So instead of asking what can I get, the real question should be, how can I serve more so that my rewards will be greater.

PS, if you don't want to read the entire book, just read the chapter on "Minimum Wage Laws"

PPS, listen to this exert from Earl Nightingale "Lead The Field" series where he explain why you earn what you earn and how to increase it. here another free link. I bout this entire audio series 27 years ago when I was 19 years old. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTFi2nTWnRU

People want more but are unwilling to do what it takes to make them self be worth more.

[GregWeld]

Originally Posted by Al Moreno

I second that, it was FREAKING poetic Greg!

What other also don't realize is that the investment could have gone the other way around and you would have lost your ass! All the employees would have just gone and found anther job.

Well AL --

Here's a real life example of that!

Three years ago I lost half a million in an investment. It was a company, started by friends - that is called ReKlaim (you can Google it). The "idea" - which started 7 or 8 years ago (and my first 50K investment was in the idea only stage) was to take USED TIRES - grind them up - "cook them" - and recover the oil - steel - and carbon that was the byproduct of the process. There are 290,000,000 (two hundred ninety million) used tires created per year. Currently they're a big problem because they're hard to get rid of. Our "idea" would have been pollution free - and would have recycled them into useful products and gotten rid of the problem entirely. Sadly - because the original guy went cuckoo during the building of the plant.... and a couple of assholes stepped in at precisely the wrong time - and lied - and flew around in jets (at our expense) and went on hunting trips etc.... I lost 100% of my investment and we lost control of the company to the company that was commissioned to build the plant. They're still trying to make a go of it but the plant is built and running. NO I couldn't "write it off" -- that is such a stupid uneducated statement! You can't just "write stuff off"... there's RULES for all that kind of stuff... and like most things -- it just ain't that f'n simple.

Like many of these things -- the success would have created 1000's of job all over the world... would have fixed a problem -- and would have made a lot of people paying a lot of taxes - it would have built plants - and used truck drivers and plant managers and employees. So again -- the "big money" would have trickled down to EVERYBODY.

[GregWeld]

Here's another thing that "my money" allows me to do... and I'm not pointing this out for kudos... I'm just saying that if I was just barely paying my bills and trying to save to buy car parts - I WOULD NOT be able to do this kind of stuff....

Note under my screen name - "SUPPORTING MEMBER" - I actually PAY to support this website. I don't have a business paying that - it's just out of pocket. I do that because I LOVE this site and the friends that are here. It takes real money to run this place.. and hard work that you never see that goes on in the background. I'm willing to pay a little bit so that I can continue to enjoy it. And that helps everyone else to be able to continue to enjoy it too!

Nobody asked me to do this - I don't get a bill - just every once in a while I PayPal some dough... It's not much (to me)... but I know it's appreciated and I'm certain that it goes to a good 'cause and I know it goes to a good guy!


Everyones view of the "rich guy" is some big fat guy sitting around smoking cigars and he's surrounded by piles of gold bars and jewels and he's busy lining the pockets of the politicians. I'm sure that's true for some people... maybe the one tenth of the one percent... but if you read the book - "The millionaire next door" you'd see that most of "us" are pretty simple folks that own small businesses or are farmers... or just own a couple small buildings we rent out etc. You take "us" out of the picture and you'll see an economy that REALLY gets wiped out.

If it wasn't for the "rich guys" bidding up cars on Barrett Jackass.... none of our "regular" cars would be worth nearly as much. A rising tide floats all boats. Some DB pays 225K for a '55 post car -- and the POS in your garage just went up 10K... and it justifies building a "clone/copy/phony" hemi 'cuda for someone to drive and enjoy. If there wasn't one just sold on BJ for 185K - nobody would build 'em!

Just sayin' -- it's just not all that simple.

[GregWeld]

Having just said all I said.... my neighbor (and friend) lost 250 MILLION GAMBLING on real estate... I told him to his face that he was a greedy Pdangler... and that he deserved to lose it. He violated the first rule of investing. DIVERSIFY. Okay -- that's a different guy different story. Here's ANOTHER local asswipe that is the person EVERYONE (including me) is so angry about! This is the .0000001% of the 1%. But he gives everyone a bad taste!

This was in the paper today. The "story" has been going on for much longer than that.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...nicole06m.html

This guy is nothing but a CROOK -- and he doesn't represent "the norm". This guy was nothing more than a thief... he got away with it for years - but he's still just a common thief. And you CAN BET that he cheated on his income taxes! Prison is too good for him. I'd do a public stockade. Let the people stone the bastard. Tar and feather and leave him to be eaten by ants...