Shop situation??? Advice please.

[ONEBAD78TA]

Not to but into this post,,but im also experiencing some similar problems,,and if I could just get some assistance would be great,,,so for you shop owners,,,lets just say a guy brings in a 78 trans am with a perfect running pontiac motor with a turbo 350 tranny,,,your tasked with removing the motor and tranny because your going to be putting in a new motor and tranny ,,,my first question,,do you pull the motor and tranny as one unit at the same time because you were told the customer is going to sell the motor and tranny ,,note there are no wheel wells in car and everything is just as simple as can be no a/c or heater core.NOW THIS WILL SOUND DUMB BUT JUST ROLE WITH IT PLEASE,,,,OR do you pull out the distributor,take off the oil filter housing,pull all pulleys,alternator,power steering pump,and only pull out the engine,and leave the tranny hainging unsupported .,,,,what is an best guess at how many hours to pull the engine and tranny,,,now if I were to have done this myself I would have pulled it all out at the same time and only taken off what had to be disconnected,,,but hey thats me.Or if you did pull just the motor how many hours would it take????/?

[ONEBAD78TA]

Here is the engine you would be pulling in my above question,,,

[Blake Foster]

Originally Posted by ONEBAD78TA

Not to but into this post,,but im also experiencing some similar problems,,and if I could just get some assistance would be great,,,so for you shop owners,,,lets just say a guy brings in a 78 trans am with a perfect running pontiac motor with a turbo 350 tranny,,,your tasked with removing the motor and tranny because your going to be putting in a new motor and tranny ,,,my first question,,do you pull the motor and tranny as one unit at the same time because you were told the customer is going to sell the motor and tranny ,,note there are no wheel wells in car and everything is just as simple as can be no a/c or heater core.NOW THIS WILL SOUND DUMB BUT JUST ROLE WITH IT PLEASE,,,,OR do you pull out the distributor,take off the oil filter housing,pull all pulleys,alternator,power steering pump,and only pull out the engine,and leave the tranny hainging unsupported .,,,,what is an best guess at how many hours to pull the engine and tranny,,,now if I were to have done this myself I would have pulled it all out at the same time and only taken off what had to be disconnected,,,but hey thats me.Or if you did pull just the motor how many hours would it take????/?

I would have removed the subframe, lifted the entire engine/trans out and told you to bring a P/U and loaded it in the back. And then cleaned up the sub, drop the new engine and trans on the sub and reinstalled the unit.

But what do I know.

[Blake Foster]

Curtis made a good point about get it in writing. We have a contract that gets signed, we feel it protects everyone. we write down numbers, and talk about it.
One thing that has NEVER happened......... a potential customer has NEVER asked for a signed agreement! NEVER. we provide one.

The next thing that turns these jobs sideways is when the customer comes in and I quote" Can we do this? or That?" well of course we can, but now the plan and budget go out the window. STICK TO THE PLAN.

I have a customer who brought us a driving Yenco clone 69 Camaro. We gave him a Estimate to do the work requested. The car showed up, now he wanted us to remove the carpet and windows to look for rust. NO PROBLEM. yep there is rust. Ok now can you take the car apart and sandblast it? YEP. Guess what. New floor, new quarters, door, fenders, tail pan. now he is so upside down, so what does he do? goes and buys another car sight unseen off the internet and has it shipped to us to use it. It is JUNK. He paid more for it than I estimated to fix the other one???? WTH now he has no money to fix Either.
Now I have 1 car blown apart and one complete sitting in the shop and the customer has no money?? 2 69 Camaros for sale now.

That is a build gone ALL wrong ALL due to the customer NOT LISTENING to the shop. what do you think we do all day here???

[GregWeld]

Originally Posted by Blake Foster

I would have removed the subframe, lifted the entire engine/trans out and told you to bring a P/U and loaded it in the back. And then cleaned up the sub, drop the new engine and trans on the sub and reinstalled the unit.

But what do I know.

You learned that trick from me.... LOL



That would have been half a days worth of work. Would have kept the idiots from leaning all over the fenders - and would have given nice access to clean some stuff up - and from what I see - it could use some TLC.

[Blake Foster]

Originally Posted by GregWeld

You learned that trick from me.... LOL



That would have been half a days worth of work. Would have kept the idiots from leaning all over the fenders - and would have given nice access to clean some stuff up - and from what I see - it could use some TLC.

you are correct SIR!! I have learned almost everything from you.

[ONEBAD78TA]

Originally Posted by Blake Foster

I would have removed the subframe, lifted the entire engine/trans out and told you to bring a P/U and loaded it in the back. And then cleaned up the sub, drop the new engine and trans on the sub and reinstalled the unit.

But what do I know.

Agreed thanks man,,,

[GregWeld]

Originally Posted by Blake Foster

you are correct SIR!! I have learned almost everything from you.

See ya next week... when we can continue to swap more lies! :>)

[Revved]

Originally Posted by Blake Foster

Curtis made a good point about get it in writing. We have a contract that gets signed, we feel it protects everyone. we write down numbers, and talk about it.
One thing that has NEVER happened......... a potential customer has NEVER asked for a signed agreement! NEVER. we provide one.

The next thing that turns these jobs sideways is when the customer comes in and I quote" Can we do this? or That?" well of course we can, but now the plan and budget go out the window. STICK TO THE PLAN.

I have a customer who brought us a driving Yenco clone 69 Camaro. We gave him a Estimate to do the work requested. The car showed up, now he wanted us to remove the carpet and windows to look for rust. NO PROBLEM. yep there is rust. Ok now can you take the car apart and sandblast it? YEP. Guess what. New floor, new quarters, door, fenders, tail pan. now he is so upside down, so what does he do? goes and buys another car sight unseen off the internet and has it shipped to us to use it. It is JUNK. He paid more for it than I estimated to fix the other one???? WTH now he has no money to fix Either.
Now I have 1 car blown apart and one complete sitting in the shop and the customer has no money?? 2 69 Camaros for sale now.

That is a build gone ALL wrong ALL due to the customer NOT LISTENING to the shop. what do you think we do all day here???

I have the same protocol. While my clients like cars and own expensive toys many aren't necessarily "car guys." They really don't understand what goes into building custom vehicles so as part of being a responsible shop owner I educate them. I have a signed agreement outlining the process, outlining the billing, outlining the payment schedule. I discuss how these custom vehicles are exactly that... custom. Many of the parts are one off custom machined items, many of the parts are racecar parts modified for street use, bolt on is a misnomer in this business. Like many of the other shop guys commenting on this post, I deal with cars that you don't know what it will cost until it is done. As a shop you provide a rough estimate... and I detail it as much as possible from experience but every client I deal with knows that the billing on these cars is based on time and materials. Before work begins the client signs the service agreement and the initial estimate with the time and materials clause written into both.

As a responsible shop owner I respect the trust my clients give me. Many I get to know as personal friends and for me to survive as a niche service provider I have to respect that trust. Every month they get an invoice with pictures of the work that was done and a narrative. I photograph anything that deviates from the initial estimate and give the client options on how to best address it. There is a clause in the service agreement that the client can request an updated estimate at any time but I have never had anyone ask because I am constantly in communication, either through pictures, emails, texts or phone calls. At the end of the service they get a folder with all of the pictures, all of the invoices, a current spec sheet on the vehicle with maintenance info (belts #s, fluids, etc...) and all of the monthly update emails.

The big failure here is communication. It is completely irresponsible for the shop to have sent him 6 months of invoices at one time and being in excess of the entire project budget. If the shop owner is a reasonable person then he will work with you on the bill. But anyone that would charge $700 in materials and 40 hours to bend up a stainless steel brake system that would take about $200 in materials and about 10 hours doesn't sound reasonable to me. It is true it could be miscommunication within his shop but you need to pin the owner that you set up this deal with down, in person to settle this bill and get your car out of there. It isn't your place to be the go-between within his shop. It sounds like this shop isn't competent enough to be working on your car in the first place... if it took him 40 hours to bend up a brake system then you are paying for someone to learn and should be getting a discounted labor rate anyway. I see this all the time with the Unique Performance cars that have come out of other shops and the owner has paid for them to learn how to work on the car enough to piece meal something together that I have to then charge him to take out and do properly.

My .02

Good luck. Try the reasonable route first. If he starts going sideways, consult a lawyer to find your rights in your state but don't come in throwing the lawyer car or it will instantly become a hostile situation.

If you show up with your checkbook and a trailer it could go two ways... either he will be reasonable and you can settle on a dollar amount and you can get the car out...

or...

He knows that if you are pulling the car he will never get another dollar out of you and will not negotiate just to be an ass.

Since it sounds like this is an out of state deal I would suggest showing up with the trailer parked nearby but don't let him know it's there until you agree on a price, make sure all of your parts are there, pay the bill, and then pull the car.

Sorry you are having to go through this... shops that can't handle their business ruin the fun of this hobby.

[DBasher]

Excellent post Sean!