Thank you Greg Weld ! Venting time.

[Tom.A]

Originally Posted by Vegas69

I'm with ya, but you take it as it is, not how you wish it to be.

When I built mine, I ended up tweaking or fixing the work of many. I can't imagine how the build would've went if I didn't have the skills to do it myself. The truth of the matter is the sorting out process is a major chunk of a sorted build that you can enjoy. Shops should really build in 50 hours to use and sort the car. It's a catalog of bastard parts in many cases that don't tango so nice.

I think you hit the nail on the head. I believe most builds have their own dirty little secrets that most of us never hear about(This is good Greg and Mario are letting folks know). It creates unrealistic expectations for guys having builds done. Many will likely end with 100K-400K spent and several years waiting for a POS that looks like a 8th grade art project under the skirt and pukes oil all the time. It seems many big dollar high profile builds spend at least a year on a show circuit which allows time to iron out bugs but even those will require wrenching and have an ugly underbelly too. My two favorite car builders are DSE and Roadster Shop but in my opinion they can't build the reliability that the General can because they spend millions developing components. Old cars with new parts still means working on them.

[dhutton]

Been doing a little navel gazing on this subject. When someone has a one off custom car built what they get is in fact the first prototype of that car. In the real world of engineering there is generally several prototype builds with each one learning from the previous build. Each build round is extensively tested and improvements made before the next round. The prototype builds are followed by pilot runs which are followed by preproduction runs. Each step continues to work out the kinks. Many units are built before the first customer build.

I guess what I am trying to say is the chances of getting a perfect custom car are relatively small. The more extreme and custom the build the smaller the chance. I think this is why the builder and customer need to agree to what extent the builder will go to sort the car and for how long he will warranty his build. The estimated cost of warranty work should be included in the labor rate of the shop.

Don

[Sheck44]

Mario, I am assuming for legal purposes your not outing this shop ?

These people need to be put out there on the stand for all to see and be judged by their reputation ... Its this simple ... Do sh!% work then you deserve to be recognized as such and your business should suffer for it. I own my own business and GUARANTEE the best service in my industry or I tell my perspective clients to FIRE us ... I've lost 1 client in 9 years.

Whats going on in this industry is beyond comprehension and something needs to be done.

Don ... I totally agree with your statement BUT there are proper ways to handle a companies responses to clients. I believe as someone had mentioned, shops unlike the Roadster shop and DSE can get in over their head quickly both technically and financially and the result is a bad situation for both the shop and the client. Maybe these shops shouldn't take on more than they can chew .... Even here in Toronto Ive seen more then 90% of all high end builds go completely sideways and its unacceptable

Cheers
Steve

[214Chevy]

Originally Posted by GregWeld

I'm beginning to wonder - after 3 pro built cars and one amateurish built disaster..... how many guys own super expensive pro built cars that are disasters and they just don't have the balls to say so.

Greg, I would be inclined to think far more than we'd imagine.

[Ketzer]

Originally Posted by 214Chevelle

Greg, I would be inclined to think far more than we'd imagine.

Reminds me of the proverbial "I aint see nuthin..." but everyone is screaming for change. Maybe I am short sighted or temperamental, fair enough. Everyone has to decide their own exposure... if someone screws me, I will not go quietly.


Jeff-

[Blake Foster]

Originally Posted by Tom.A

It seems many big dollar high profile builds spend at least a year on a show circuit which allows time to iron out bugs but even those will require wrenching and have an ugly underbelly too. My two favorite car builders are DSE and Roadster Shop but in my opinion they can't build the reliability that the General can because they spend millions developing components. Old cars with new parts still means working on them.

WHY would anyone think that any builder ANY builder could build the reliability into even a million dollar car that GM FORD (the corvette has been in constant development since 1952!!!) or any mfg can? how could you take parts made by 200 different suppliers that have never been tested together for more the 2 minutes if your luck and expect all of them to work for for 100,000 miles with no issues. These are NOT factory cars they are 1 off cars built by guys who are supposed to perform Magic and make some power window motor work with some after market switch and a new window that doesn't fit in an aftermarket door with new repop window felt and rubbers that are too hard and too thick in a 40 year old car and expect it to work perfectly the first time you touch the switch and have that NEVER be an issue for the entire remainder of that cars life? really?

I feel Speedtech builds really good cars, well finished and with Great style, I feel we do it more reasonably that some in the same price range, i have been doing this since i was 13! We test the cars for a period, usually a couple hundred miles. ( i laugh at the customers who say Take it out and beat on it!! UMMM NO that is up to you) and then give it to the customer, because i have to charge all that testing time and all the fuel. It adds up. The customer want their car, they want to drive it.
I am sure you have seen the grey 69 Camaro we just finished? it was a mid $$$ build compared to a DS or RS car we put 400 miles on it, here is the funny part brand new T56 5 miles on it and it pushed out the rear seal. hummm oh well 2 hours later we had a new seal in it who knows. 5 more miles pushed out the new seal,WTF made some clamps to hold the seal in from aluminum. thinking maybe the housing was a little over size it was not leaking or anything, customer picks up car 50 miles later is shows up on a tow truck guess what, call Tremec give them the ser# "oh that one was a DUD and needs a new Tail shaft housing we will send you a new one. Cool who is paying the labor? tremec "NOT US" cool pull the exhaust drive shaft for the 3rd time, pull the trans wait 2 weeks for the part! the original housing did not get the vent or return passages machined in it so it was juut pumping the oil onto the back side of the seal. when we had the trans out we noticed the shifter was all loose. took that apart and the pivot pin bushing had walked out and was all chewed up. call Tremec send a pic "that does not look like our shifter (it was a pick of the pin ans pivot not the whole assembly) send another pic of the housing that says "TREMEC" on it does this look like yours? .........ok we will send you a replacement.... tick tock 2 weeks!! the car was on the hoist for a MONTH we had 12 hours labor in this.
Welcome to building cars, i find it funny how it is never our own parts we are fixing!!!
Whew rant over
i just want people to understand that some of the issues that come up on these cars truly are not the builders fault!! but they choose to either fix them AT THEIR EXPENSE!!!! BTW or not I suppose that is the difference.

I think that is the longest post I have ever written

[DOOM]

Originally Posted by GregWeld

I'm beginning to wonder - after 3 pro built cars and one amateurish built disaster..... how many guys own super expensive pro built cars that are disasters and they just don't have the balls to say so.

I think you know the answer to that Greg.

Originally Posted by dhutton

Been doing a little navel gazing on this subject. When someone has a one off custom car built what they get is in fact the first prototype of that car. In the real world of engineering there is generally several prototype builds with each one learning from the previous build. Each build round is extensively tested and improvements made before the next round. The prototype builds are followed by pilot runs which are followed by preproduction runs. Each step continues to work out the kinks. Many units are built before the first customer build.

I guess what I am trying to say is the chances of getting a perfect custom car are relatively small. The more extreme and custom the build the smaller the chance. I think this is why the builder and customer need to agree to what extent the builder will go to sort the car and for how long he will warranty his build. The estimated cost of warranty work should be included in the labor rate of the shop.

Don

Don I agree with you . And let me start by saying I don't expect my car to be warrantied for life . I do understand these cars are hand built. Just let me clear that up . My issue other than the engine are somewhat minor . But these issues have been a problem from the beginning. I have had the car back for almost two years these things didn't just start now. And this car has been pretty much a disaster since the last few months of the build . I 've been pretty forgiving through out this whole thing and I have two people that car vouch for that. I let a lot of things go and as my wife has said I'm the problem for letting that happen. Guess what she's right ! I should of taken the car out after the first problem came up but I didn't. And all hell broke loose after that. In my thread I'm going to go through everything that happen and when you read it your going to wonder WTF is wrong with me!!!. I learned a valuable lesson trust me.

Originally Posted by Sheck44

Mario, I am assuming for legal purposes your not outing this shop ?

These people need to be put out there on the stand for all to see and be judged by their reputation ... Its this simple ... Do sh!% work then you deserve to be recognized as such and your business should suffer for it. I own my own business and GUARANTEE the best service in my industry or I tell my perspective clients to FIRE us ... I've lost 1 client in 9 years.

Whats going on in this industry is beyond comprehension and something needs to be done.

Don ... I totally agree with your statement BUT there are proper ways to handle a companies responses to clients. I believe as someone had mentioned, shops unlike the Roadster shop and DSE can get in over their head quickly both technically and financially and the result is a bad situation for both the shop and the client. Maybe these shops shouldn't take on more than they can chew .... Even here in Toronto Ive seen more then 90% of all high end builds go completely sideways and its unacceptable

Cheers
Steve

Steve No problem BBT FABRICATION. It's in my Project thread so not to hard to figure it out

[FaBrycation]

Mario,

You're a good man. I am truly sorry to hear about this and I hope a resolution can be found without drastic measures.

as for everyone else...

I agree with what was stated above about custom cars being basically a prototype. Being a one-off car builder is subjecting yourself to the inevitable bugs and issues every time you fire the next one up. These bugs can be 1 or 100 depending on the details of the build and it is as frustrating for the builder as it is for the customer. The difference in good, mediocre, and bad builders during this time is being able to manage these issues when they arise by treating customers with the utmost respect and honesty by resolving the issues and not repeating past mistakes on the next builds.

Contrary to many of the comments in this thread- I believe the majority of builders are good people that can be trusted and are not crooks or shady people. While there is no justification for not making things right or not handling issues, I hate to see the posts in this thread that say they would or could never trust a "professional" shop to build their cars. This is simply not being fair to builders and guys who genuinely want to do the best they can for customers. I hope some of you won't not trust any builder just because a few people have had issues with some builders.

I hate to see good people involved in these situations. We as car guys are a dying breed and I would love to see us all working well together.

[BMR Sales]

Originally Posted by DOOM

I think you know the answer to that Greg.

Don I agree with you . And let me start by saying I don't expect my car to be warrantied for life . I do understand these cars are hand built. Just let me clear that up . My issue other than the engine are somewhat minor . But these issues have been a problem from the beginning. I have had the car back for almost two years these things didn't just start now. And this car has been pretty much a disaster since the last few months of the build . I 've been pretty forgiving through out this whole thing and I have two people that car vouch for that. I let a lot of things go and as my wife has said I'm the problem for letting that happen. Guess what she's right ! I should of taken the car out after the first problem came up but I didn't. And all hell broke loose after that. In my thread I'm going to go through everything that happen and when you read it your going to wonder WTF is wrong with me!!!. I learned a valuable lesson trust me.

Steve No problem BBT FABRICATION. It's in my Project thread so not to hard to figure it out

Mario, I just went thru your Build and there is a bunch of awesomeness there. But there was also a bunch of "I'm done with this car" "I'm sueing". Obviously I'm not in your shoes and I've been raked over the coals on much smaller builds. Could it be that the attitude you got "Everything is Good, you signed for it" be part of you sueing people as part of the build? I friggen hate Attorneys (my Ex-Wife is one to start with, lol), so if someone starts I'm going to sue so & so, I tend to stay far away.

[ironworks]

Originally Posted by Blake Foster

WHY would anyone think that any builder ANY builder could build the reliability into even a million dollar car that GM FORD (the corvette has been in constant development since 1952!!!) or any mfg can? how could you take parts made by 200 different suppliers that have never been tested together for more the 2 minutes if your luck and expect all of them to work for for 100,000 miles with no issues. These are NOT factory cars they are 1 off cars built by guys who are supposed to perform Magic and make some power window motor work with some after market switch and a new window that doesn't fit in an aftermarket door with new repop window felt and rubbers that are too hard and too thick in a 40 year old car and expect it to work perfectly the first time you touch the switch and have that NEVER be an issue for the entire remainder of that cars life? really?

I feel Speedtech builds really good cars, well finished and with Great style, I feel we do it more reasonably that some in the same price range, i have been doing this since i was 13! We test the cars for a period, usually a couple hundred miles. ( i laugh at the customers who say Take it out and beat on it!! UMMM NO that is up to you) and then give it to the customer, because i have to charge all that testing time and all the fuel. It adds up. The customer want their car, they want to drive it.
I am sure you have seen the grey 69 Camaro we just finished? it was a mid $$$ build compared to a DS or RS car we put 400 miles on it, here is the funny part brand new T56 5 miles on it and it pushed out the rear seal. hummm oh well 2 hours later we had a new seal in it who knows. 5 more miles pushed out the new seal,WTF made some clamps to hold the seal in from aluminum. thinking maybe the housing was a little over size it was not leaking or anything, customer picks up car 50 miles later is shows up on a tow truck guess what, call Tremec give them the ser# "oh that one was a DUD and needs a new Tail shaft housing we will send you a new one. Cool who is paying the labor? tremec "NOT US" cool pull the exhaust drive shaft for the 3rd time, pull the trans wait 2 weeks for the part! the original housing did not get the vent or return passages machined in it so it was juut pumping the oil onto the back side of the seal. when we had the trans out we noticed the shifter was all loose. took that apart and the pivot pin bushing had walked out and was all chewed up. call Tremec send a pic "that does not look like our shifter (it was a pick of the pin ans pivot not the whole assembly) send another pic of the housing that says "TREMEC" on it does this look like yours? .........ok we will send you a replacement.... tick tock 2 weeks!! the car was on the hoist for a MONTH we had 12 hours labor in this.
Welcome to building cars, i find it funny how it is never our own parts we are fixing!!!
Whew rant over
i just want people to understand that some of the issues that come up on these cars truly are not the builders fault!! but they choose to either fix them AT THEIR EXPENSE!!!! BTW or not I suppose that is the difference.

I think that is the longest post I have ever written

Or you mean like the Ron Francis black box relay panel that needs separate relays to operate properly. I still laugh at the owner of Ron Francis telling me I need to install relays to trigger his fancy relay panel that won a Super Duper SEMA award. Junk. Then why do I need your stupid relay box.

Or you mean the old ISIS system stuff? HAHAHA Its like using an original Nintendo 20 years later.

Or that hydraulic power assist brake booster thing. Not hydraboost I forget what the other was called.

Or that flush fit glass glass kit that just doesn't fit.

All those fancy products that everyone wants until its actually installed.


If you build any car that is cool now or trendy it has new parts that the builder and owner are the R&D test mule for said company whether you know it or not. I love it when I call about a malfunctioning part and the company leads you to believe your the only dude on the planet with one that is wrong and you tell em, " What are the odds that I have 3 of them from you that are junk and my buddy has 2 more?". My buddy said he talked you last week about his two junk units and told me to ask for you directly. ZING.



Later on we can get into the bad shops who should not be building entire cars.