Thank you Greg Weld ! Venting time.

[ironworks]

This hobby is filled with tons of egos of people who want to say they can do stuff as it makes them fell like Tim the Tool Man Taylor I guess. We all have talents and more then likely your not good at doing every single aspect of building a car. Now days it takes a team, Sheetmetal guys, Chassis guys, Mechanical guys and body guys and painters and interior guys. Its a tremendous team effort to build things that look good and perform well.

I have seen fabricators build a truck that they just changed the engine oil pan to clear the crossmember in their chassis and forgot the pick up tube seal so the engine had no oil pressure for a long long time as they couldn't figure it out. They are fabricators and not Mechanics. I have seen body and paint guys guys think they can do chassis work. And it drives like a tank. Body and paint guys who have zero clue what caster is. Or chassis fabricators who build a pan hard bar mount without reinforcement as they are not engineers but the welding on the frame is nice and tig welded. HAHA

I have heard awards of major Award winning cars that were built by super shops that caught fire in the customers drive way. Or major shops who send the customer on a cross country journey in a brand new car and tell them to watch the gauge as the fan doesn't always come on. REALLY??? 300 miles down the road it over heated at a truck stop in the middle of no where. It was the fan connector not being connected properly.

The true test of any builder is repeat customers. No one that is unhappy will build a 2nd or 3rd or 4th car if its junk. The other one is how many cars do you see for sale after its complete. Nobody divorces their wife because she is a great wife. I see cars that get passed around and sold at auction 2, 3 even 4 or 5 times at auction? Nobody sells a car because its so great and runs awesome all the time.

I say this all the time as I see guys who get taken all the time. This industry needs more education. Tech articles just sell parts and tell you how great junk parts are to intsall. Most guys have no clue how what they are looking at or how to REALLY build a car. I get a call every week from a guy wanting a camaro with All the cool parts for 20K. Painted and ready for SEMA and the track. Not gonna happen. Can't even buy the engine and trans you want for that bud.

And some cars just take more work to get right then others. You may be using the best builder ever and it might be struggle. The more custom the more chance for problems until that basic LS3 430 hp engine kicks you square in the nuts.

[DBasher]

Such a good discussion! Just like anything you have to qualify your builder and the builder should do the same with the customer. Neither side wants a headache and the realities and expectations should be layed out up front, time line, cost, warranty.
Because I don’t know, what exactly is discussed on a “pro” built car? Is a contract in place?

[dhutton]

Originally Posted by DOOM

I think you know the answer to that Greg.

Don I agree with you . And let me start by saying I don't expect my car to be warrantied for life . I do understand these cars are hand built. Just let me clear that up . My issue other than the engine are somewhat minor . But these issues have been a problem from the beginning. I have had the car back for almost two years these things didn't just start now. And this car has been pretty much a disaster since the last few months of the build . I 've been pretty forgiving through out this whole thing and I have two people that car vouch for that. I let a lot of things go and as my wife has said I'm the problem for letting that happen. Guess what she's right ! I should of taken the car out after the first problem came up but I didn't. And all hell broke loose after that. In my thread I'm going to go through everything that happen and when you read it your going to wonder WTF is wrong with me!!!. I learned a valuable lesson trust me.

Steve No problem BBT FABRICATION. It's in my Project thread so not to hard to figure it out

Hi Mario. Just to be clear I don’t think you are at fault here. I’m just sharing some observations I made after many years of product development and design.

Don

[DOOM]

Originally Posted by Ketzer

Reminds me of the proverbial "I aint see nuthin..." but everyone is screaming for change. Maybe I am short sighted or temperamental, fair enough. Everyone has to decide their own exposure... if someone screws me, I will not go quietly.


Jeff-

Jeff I'm the fairest guy you could ask for. And I have a few people on this board that can attest to that . I can tell you this I'm not a sue happy person . But when you get to a point that you know your being taken advantage of knowing you been REALLY REALLY cool through this prosses I feel you have to draw the line . Almost 30 years in business never once did I have to go after someone or someone come after me! I had someone tell me I wouldn't do this if I pay for my attorney . Ahh yes I would !

Originally Posted by Blake Foster

WHY would anyone think that any builder ANY builder could build the reliability into even a million dollar car that GM FORD (the corvette has been in constant development since 1952!!!) or any mfg can? how could you take parts made by 200 different suppliers that have never been tested together for more the 2 minutes if your luck and expect all of them to work for for 100,000 miles with no issues. These are NOT factory cars they are 1 off cars built by guys who are supposed to perform Magic and make some power window motor work with some after market switch and a new window that doesn't fit in an aftermarket door with new repop window felt and rubbers that are too hard and too thick in a 40 year old car and expect it to work perfectly the first time you touch the switch and have that NEVER be an issue for the entire remainder of that cars life? really?

I feel Speedtech builds really good cars, well finished and with Great style, I feel we do it more reasonably that some in the same price range, i have been doing this since i was 13! We test the cars for a period, usually a couple hundred miles. ( i laugh at the customers who say Take it out and beat on it!! UMMM NO that is up to you) and then give it to the customer, because i have to charge all that testing time and all the fuel. It adds up. The customer want their car, they want to drive it.
I am sure you have seen the grey 69 Camaro we just finished? it was a mid $$$ build compared to a DS or RS car we put 400 miles on it, here is the funny part brand new T56 5 miles on it and it pushed out the rear seal. hummm oh well 2 hours later we had a new seal in it who knows. 5 more miles pushed out the new seal,WTF made some clamps to hold the seal in from aluminum. thinking maybe the housing was a little over size it was not leaking or anything, customer picks up car 50 miles later is shows up on a tow truck guess what, call Tremec give them the ser# "oh that one was a DUD and needs a new Tail shaft housing we will send you a new one. Cool who is paying the labor? tremec "NOT US" cool pull the exhaust drive shaft for the 3rd time, pull the trans wait 2 weeks for the part! the original housing did not get the vent or return passages machined in it so it was juut pumping the oil onto the back side of the seal. when we had the trans out we noticed the shifter was all loose. took that apart and the pivot pin bushing had walked out and was all chewed up. call Tremec send a pic "that does not look like our shifter (it was a pick of the pin ans pivot not the whole assembly) send another pic of the housing that says "TREMEC" on it does this look like yours? .........ok we will send you a replacement.... tick tock 2 weeks!! the car was on the hoist for a MONTH we had 12 hours labor in this.
Welcome to building cars, i find it funny how it is never our own parts we are fixing!!!
Whew rant over
i just want people to understand that some of the issues that come up on these cars truly are not the builders fault!! but they choose to either fix them AT THEIR EXPENSE!!!! BTW or not I suppose that is the difference.

I think that is the longest post I have ever written

Blake I get everything your saying and fully understand trust me. And this is one thing of many with my car . So I'll start with the engine it had problems from day one. Not 5 months not 1 year but day one. Is it my builders fault ? Well I didn't send the motor to my builder to have it built it was his builder . But then you ask is it the builders fault ? Well after going to two different tuners ( that's a whole nother story) It took my nephews drag sled tuner to figure out in five minutes my car has been running at 44 degress advanced fixed timing!!!! Trying to start my car was like rolling the dice the starter kick back was so severe it bent the f@cking starter bolts ! So my question is would you deliver a car knowing from the start it wasn't right?

Originally Posted by FaBrycation

Mario,

You're a good man. I am truly sorry to hear about this and I hope a resolution can be found without drastic measures.

as for everyone else...

I agree with what was stated above about custom cars being basically a prototype. Being a one-off car builder is subjecting yourself to the inevitable bugs and issues every time you fire the next one up. These bugs can be 1 or 100 depending on the details of the build and it is as frustrating for the builder as it is for the customer. The difference in good, mediocre, and bad builders during this time is being able to manage these issues when they arise by treating customers with the utmost respect and honesty by resolving the issues and not repeating past mistakes on the next builds.

Contrary to many of the comments in this thread- I believe the majority of builders are good people that can be trusted and are not crooks or shady people. While there is no justification for not making things right or not handling issues, I hate to see the posts in this thread that say they would or could never trust a "professional" shop to build their cars. This is simply not being fair to builders and guys who genuinely want to do the best they can for customers. I hope some of you won't not trust any builder just because a few people have had issues with some builders.

I hate to see good people involved in these situations. We as car guys are a dying breed and I would love to see us all working well together.

Thank you Brycen !

Originally Posted by BMR Sales

Mario, I just went thru your Build and there is a bunch of awesomeness there. But there was also a bunch of "I'm done with this car" "I'm sueing". Obviously I'm not in your shoes and I've been raked over the coals on much smaller builds. Could it be that the attitude you got "Everything is Good, you signed for it" be part of you sueing people as part of the build? I friggen hate Attorneys (my Ex-Wife is one to start with, lol), so if someone starts I'm going to sue so & so, I tend to stay far away.

Well spend $45,000 dollars to get your interior done and have it a complete pile of sh!t and let me know what you would do !!IT'S ALL FIXED NOW!!

Originally Posted by DBasher

Such a good discussion! Just like anything you have to qualify your builder and the builder should do the same with the customer. Neither side wants a headache and the realities and expectations should be layed out up front, time line, cost, warranty.
Because I don’t know, what exactly is discussed on a “pro” built car? Is a contract in place?

Ohh I will do it totally different next time

Originally Posted by dhutton

Hi Mario. Just to be clear I don’t think you are at fault here. I’m just sharing some observations I made after many years of product development and design.

Don

Nope totally understand!

[Blake Foster]

Originally Posted by DOOM

Blake I get everything your saying and fully understand trust me. And this is one thing of many with my car . So I'll start with the engine it had problems from day one. Not 5 months not 1 year but day one. Is it my builders fault ? Well I didn't send the motor to my builder to have it built it was his builder . But then you ask is it the builders fault ? Well after going to two different tuners ( that's a whole nother story) It took my nephews drag sled tuner to figure out in five minutes my car has been running at 44 degress advanced fixed timing!!!! Trying to start my car was like rolling the dice the starter kick back was so severe it bent the f@cking starter bolts ! So my question is would you deliver a car knowing from the start it wasn't right?

Mario i was actually not implying anything in regard to your car, i was more just explaining it to others who might be reading the posts,
if your asking me if i would hand over the car not running properly the answer is NO. now we don't do tuning, i have people for that, that being said they are hard to find and hard to work with.

when people tell me they want there car to handle and drive like a new Corvette of BMW i tell them to just go buy one and save your money!
your car was obviously a HUGE DREAM that you decided to try and make come true as are MOST of these builds it is unfortunate that it has turned into a nightmare!!
hell i cant afford one of these car!! but if i could i LET ME TELL YOU!!!
hope it all works out and you get to enjoy it !!

[Ketzer]

Originally Posted by DOOM

Jeff I'm the fairest guy you could ask for. And I have a few people on this board that can attest to that . I can tell you this I'm not a sue happy person . But when you get to a point that you know your being taken advantage of knowing you been REALLY REALLY cool through this prosses I feel you have to draw the line . Almost 30 years in business never once did I have to go after someone or someone come after me! I had someone tell me I wouldn't do this if I pay for my attorney . Ahh yes I would !

Just so we're clear Mario, I'm 100% with you and GW. I am picky, I expect someone's best effort and quality. I tell them upfront before price is even talked about...

I am not understanding people who don't speak up when they don't get what they paid for...

Jeff-

[DOOM]

Originally Posted by Blake Foster

Mario i was actually not implying anything in regard to your car, i was more just explaining it to others who might be reading the posts,
if your asking me if i would hand over the car not running properly the answer is NO. now we don't do tuning, i have people for that, that being said they are hard to find and hard to work with.

when people tell me they want there car to handle and drive like a new Corvette of BMW i tell them to just go buy one and save your money!
your car was obviously a HUGE DREAM that you decided to try and make come true as are MOST of these builds it is unfortunate that it has turned into a nightmare!!
hell i cant afford one of these car!! but if i could i LET ME TELL YOU!!!
hope it all works out and you get to enjoy it !!

Nope didn’t take it that way at all 🤪 Just wa asking if you would even deliver a car like that and you answered that ‼️

Originally Posted by Ketzer

Just so we're clear Mario, I'm 100% with you and GW. I am picky, I expect someone's best effort and quality. I tell them upfront before price is even talked about...

I am not understanding people who don't speak up when they don't get what they paid for...

Jeff-

I understand Jeff sorry if it came off the wrong way .

[GregWeld]

So --- In agreement with Brycen.... I will sum this up for the BUILDERS here and the customers.....

I've had FOUR rather expensive pro-built cars done.

#1 - Steve Frisbee built '32 Ford --- rebuild is the correct description. Was in excess of $200K worth of work.

Car didn't run....

Started and ran my brand new motor with no oil.... had I not been there at the time - they'd have run it til it seized. I heard the lifters rattling and said kill it! They were so stupid they didn't bother to check the dipstick - nor pre-prime the motor after sitting for a year.

Car had no brake lights

Car had to be flat bedded within 2 hours of being driven - because of crap wire job

Car puked coolant and oil from every line made.

They charged me $15K for fixing it. This was all work they had been paid to perform the first time around. Don't even get me started..... If I see him I'd like to punch his fat little face because he's a dick and an idiot.


#2 -- Roy Brizio built '33 -- Car was $283K.... had several minor teething issues. Every one of them fixed correctly -- paint touched up - car detailed and looking brand spanking new every time I took it in for something - or even just asked to store it for a couple months. NO CHARGE EVER -- NO "NOT MY PROBLEM" EVER.

#3 -- Sutton built Dirt Missile.... $200K catalog car.... Expect to have LOTS of issues and LOTS of set up work and LOTS of testing and tuning.... but if you can't do little things even half right - and you are aware of an issue and don't bother to fix it -- and you cost me $50K in wasted time and effort.... you don't get to touch the car ever... because you're too F'n stupid. I'd prefer to pay someone double (not) to fix it.

#4 -- '40 Ford.... We shall see..... my guess is. It fires up - drives 3,000 miles problem free.


MARIO nor I expect perfection from first start up -- what we do expect when stuff is leaking -- or stuff the builder DID -- not a part that broke under warranty -- is to have the issue resolved in a fair and equitable manor. Even if it takes more time - and costs some money.

Neither of us would ask for a "discount" up front before starting a build.... we ask for the things we want - we expect to pay for them - we EXPECT you the builder to be a professional that you represent yourself as -- and to FORESEE issues when you're building this crap. Don't set my engine back in a custom built firewall and not be able to remove the valve covers. Don't give me a car that the brake lines are leaking. Don't give me a car puking oil. Don't give me a car with fuses blowing repeatedly.

These cars cost what brand new Ferraris and Bentleys cost. Be a professional and fix the issues YOU caused - without hesitation, or question, or additional billing.

Nobody that's done this work would expect perfection or a lifetime warranty -- or take issue with a part that takes a dump -- what you expect is for the builder to fix the issues THEY CAUSED.

[SSLance]

Many of you know I recently purchased a new home from a production builder that builds 1,000 homes a year. This builder has policies and procedures for every little thing involved with the construction and sale of a new home. They are not "newbies" at this at all...

On Monday we had our 5 month meeting with our warranty rep. This is where we bring up any small issues we have and they take care of them under their 12 month bumper to bumper warranty laid out in their manuals. It's all good, basically the house is fine, couple small issues like a garage door that needs adjusted because it won't stay up and a couple service doors that have sagged and need adjusted. No big deal...

Later that day I notice this laying up on the roof.



I send the rep a quick email "Hey, also noticed a vent cap has come loose up on the roof if you want to put that on your list of items to take care of"

She replies back that I need to contact the roofer for that...

I ask her for the # and ask "Why?" She says she is not responsible for "storm damage"...

So I call the roofer, after a 30 minute conversation with their CSR...who absolutely won't schedule an appt without me agreeing to pay a service call charge first...I take my big camera out for some better pictures.

Her story is the same thing, "we've had lots of storm damage in your neighborhood, this is absolutely storm damage, storm damage is not covered under the warranty". She even tried to put the blame on another trade, saying that is the dryer vent..."not one of their pieces". I ask "who installed it?" "Well, we did but the trade gave it to us to install". She had never even seen what came loose and had no idea what the vent was for or why it came loose. Every time I'd refute her next excuse, she'd put me on hold...go talk to her boss (the owner of the roofing company) and come back to me with his next excuse to use... I was blown away at the effort they both put into NOT accepting that this just might be their fault or at least taking a look at it first before disavowing all responsibility for their shoddy work.

Now, here's the deal... I could fix this in less than 10 minutes myself...little bit of PVC glue and a ladder is all I'd need. Thing is, their warranty specifically states that if there is ANY sign of the homeowner being up on the roof, the warranty is null and void. So I can NOT fix it myself.

Here's what the pictures show...





Check out the paint line on the top of the vent the piece came off of.

Look real close at the inside of the piece that came off...



Clear case of improper install IMHO... The cap was never put all the way on the vent, nor was it ever glued. The one right next to it looks like it's ready to come off as well.

I sent an email (with read receipt) back to both the builder and the roofer CSRs explaining how this was NOT storm damage but instead improper install yesterday about noon...and included high res photos of the items in the email. I have still not heard back from either of them even though they both read the email not long after I sent it.

I paid well North of 2-3 times what one of Greg's car builds cost for this house and am having to have this battle over a 5 minute warranty fix on a "production" builder's product.

Should I have to have this battle? IMHO not a chance. But what are my choices here? Blast the builder thru every channel I can to force them to fix it or just keep presenting the facts and the way I see it to them until they finally cave in and fix it like they should have from the very beginning.

These days it seems the first answer with any company when an issue comes up is almost ALWAYS "it's not my problem, it's somebody else's" until you can convince them it IS their problem. Sometimes it even takes drastic measures to convince them...this is the difference between the good ones and the not so good ones... I expect I'll have to have a relationship with the builder of my home for some time to come still, so I remain very friendly, very tactful, but yet very firm on what I expect from them. Eventually the facts will win out and we can both go forward still getting along...

[Vegas69]

The economy also plays into the problem. When everybody is flourishing attitudes can change. Egos swell and confidence rises when things are going well.

"I'm so busy right now, what do I care about burning a few bridges."

Guess what, the day isn't far off when you won't be that busy and the seeds you've sown will come back to bite you at the worst possible time. Amazing how that always seems to be the way it works out in this life.

Work hard and ALWAYS treat people right and you'll flourish regardless of circumstance. The tortoise and the truth are the best way to build an enterprise that will stand the test of time. You'll sleep well and money won't be an issue.