Fuel Tanks

[ccracin]

Originally Posted by Stielow

I answered a Post on Pro-Touring and thought I would add it here also...

Back in 1993 I had my first experiences with a ’69 Camaro and add on EFI fuel pumps. I bolted the pump to the frame rail added a return port to the tank and started to drive the car. As I was walking back to my house after the car quit for the 2nd time I had time to reflect on where I had gone wrong. The stock ’69 Camaro fuel pick up sock was falling apart and sending crap from in to my pump causing it to fail.

I added a pre-filter and solved that problem. I left for One Lap of America and the engine would fuel starve at anything lower than half a tank on road courses. I also blew the high pressure fuel line off the fuel pump at Michigan International Raceway and had a large fire that year. (Kyle Tucker was driving at the time and had to bail out of the car) The fuel pump I was using only had barb fittings on it. The high cornering loads at MIS caused the line to pull part way off. But not enough to kill the engine.

•Lesson 1 Stock fuel pick ups won’t work
•Lesson 2 Don’t use barb fittings

On the Red Witch I used an ATL fuel cell with a remote mounted fuel pump. It worked fine just a pain to fill at the gas station with the foam in it. It also required cutting the trunk out of the car. It would pull down to about a ¼ tank before fuel starvation.

•Lesson 3 Fuel Cells work

When I was building the Trasher I added a “Fuel Bucket” to the inside of the stock tank. The ATL (http://www.atlinc.com/catalogs.html) (Page 20 – 21) fuel bucket had 3 check balls in it and the fuel pick up. I added a sump to the rear of the tank and put the fuel bucket in it. To get access to the inside of the tank I cut an access hole in the top of the tank. I closed out the hole in the tank with an ATL tank plate and back up ring. ATL no longer sells these due to a law suit. It also always seemed to seep a little fuel after you filled the fuel tank. I think this was due to the lack of a proper vent and pressure would build up in the tank and push fuel past the gaskets.

That system worked OK. I could use the fuel down to ¼ tank on a race track. I didn’t like the idea of cutting and welding the stock tank. I lined the inside of the tank after I modified them to keep them from rusting. It was all a pain. I used something similar to this on the Mule. Both of these set up uses external Bosch fuel pumps.

I had Ricks build me a stainless steel tank for Camaro X with the check balls and a fuel bucket in the tank and a Walbro pump in the tank. It worked OK and would pull fuel down to ¼ tank on track. On this tank Rick’s still had not sorted out the vent and it would push fuel out of the tank when full. I added a vent to the filler neck that tied into the Rick’s vent and seem to reduce the problem.

•Lesson 4 Fuel Buckets work fair

When I did Jack Ass I had had years of experience with low fuel handling problems at work.

A little background. People suggested using two fuel pumps and a surge tank. This will work on a race car but will not work in production. Fuel pumps need fuel to lubricate them. Transfer pumps will work for a while dry but not very long. If you plan to use electric fuel pump to feed a surge tank then some day you will burn up your transfer pumps.

What we came up with is a fuel pump setup that sits in its own buck the fills the bucket with “jet” pumps. Jet pump are siphon pumps that use some of the fuel flow to run through an orifice to create a pressure drop to pump fuel. Many factory fuel pumps have jet pumps. Many new cars have split fuel tanks and need one jet pump to keep the bucket full and one to pull fuel from the other half of the tank. Corvettes have two tanks connected by a transfer tube and Cadillac CTS’s have saddle tanks and a transfer tube. I had Hector at Rick’s build me a split tank for a ’69 Camaro with the ring in it to allow a stock CTS-V fuel pump module. The fuel pump module sits on one half and a ½” tube runs to the other side of the tank to pick up fuel.

During the Motorstate Challenge Charley and I forgot to put fuel in JA after the road race Saturday night due to doing a photo shoot. We went to the Autocross the next day. Again we forgot to add fuel. I did my 3 runs then Charley got into the car and made two runs. Waiting to make the third run he noticed the fuel gauge "E". Charley made 1 more run on the autocross course with no fuel stumble before we could get more fuel. So the set up we have will pull the tank to empty in a heavy lateral environment.

•Lesson 5 Stock stuff works!

I went through 5 tanks from Rick’s before I got something that I feel works. I would like to thank Hector for all his help building me one off tanks. I consider this all development. There later tanks also have the vent system working much better now.

A quick note on fuel pumps. If you run a big pump for a long time at low consumption like on Hot Rod Power Tour they over heat. (ask Charley or Jody) I like stock style intake pumps with FSCMs to step down the voltage at cruise to help to not heat up the fuel.

Now the down side – none of this is cheap. Just my 2 cents…

Mark

Lesson 6 Stock stuff only works if you have access to the information needed to apply it properly!

C'mon Mark, you wet our whistle now satisfy our thirst! Any information would again, be greatly appreciated. Your experience would be invaluable to those of us that would like to try using the stock stuff. Thanks for any help you can give.

[RobG]

Originally Posted by Garage Dog 65

Sorry Rob - you wouldn't believe how difficult it is to get info on new parts from GM ... I spent an entire day looking and calling for info with no luck.

I called the AC Delco tech assistance line. That is contracted out by GM to a company that performs tech work for many of the OEMs including Porsche lambo, etc. They could answer my spec info request on the part - but I would need to setup an account first - then it would cost $3.25 for each question - and $3.25 per minute for them to answer the question.

So unless Mark can provide the info from the inside - or a member with access to the info can add it - I'll have to setup an account and pay.

GM # 19207950 and ACD # M10235

I have also tried to get the name of the supply vendor for the venturi jet component used in the early C5 Fuel Sender/Jet Pump unit - but no one will give that out as it's still proprietary.... been making those since what 1998 ? So I have bought a couple used assy's off e-bay for $20 bucks and will piece meal the setup together.

Man I'm spoiled from aviation ... the supply vendor's name is right there next to the part number in the illustrated parts catalog - WITH their address and phone number.

Rant off...

I appreciate the effort but no need to pay those yahoo's for a simple answer, that's a joke. Like I said earlier I would just like some specs for comparisons sake because I am a big fan of using factory stuff in my hot rods because they are usually a lot more durable and a lot easier to get (replacements) than aftermarket.

[steinepstein]

I found a few items on "fuel surge" tanks that most of the STI and Honda guys are running. This is basically a high/low pressure system with a very small tank for the FI pump. This looks like a potential solution to the problem without having to build two separate tanks, just place inline and use a low pressure pump to feed from the main tank. Here are a couple links:

http://www.ratdat.com/?p=168

http://sdsefi.com/techsurge.htm

Hope this helps.

[steinepstein]

Ok, welp, I read the piece about the surge tank from Stielow, ok back to drawing board.


JE

[PhillipM]

I appoligize for bringing back this old thread, but I was wanting to see if any headway was made on this subject?

Phillip

[ccracin]

This is not dead, just simmering. GarageDog and I will be seeing this project through for our vehicles. We both have other commitments right now. When we make some progress, we will post it up. Let us know if you come up with anything!

[frojoe]

Originally Posted by steinepstein

Ok, welp, I read the piece about the surge tank from Stielow, ok back to drawing board.


JE

I was thinking of doing this as well, but back to Stielow... I agree that a pump that isn't moving any fuel is not being cooled or lubricated, but in this picture below, the low-pressure, high-volume rear pump is always flowing good volume, and the the high-pressure low volume FI pump at the front is doing what it would otherwise be doing if it were just sucking gas from the regular tank and sending it all the way forward to the engine. Maybe throw cooling fins on the surge tank or a cooler on the return from the FPR, and another cooler on return from surge -> main tank... where would heating and lubrication issues come from? I'm in 4th year of mechanical so feel free to explain all "engineery like' if need be!

Thanks,
Joe

....

[hectore3]

Mine was more low buck. And I'm going to change out the barb fittings for some screw on stuff. I took a factory re-pop NEW 1967 GTO tank and welded in an Aeromotive sumped and baffled road race style addition. It comes with AN-10 and AN-12 inlet and outlet. With a possible provision for a breather. It works wonderful. There are more expensive setups. But I've found mine to be the best bang for the buck for the home shade tree guys like myself.

[Blake Foster]

Holy S&$t TMI
i used the new Aeromotive Stealth fuel cell and all the related parts.
the A1000 pump is mounted verticaly in the cell, with a machined Bell about 1/4" from the bottom of the cell in a box that also is fed by the return.
so i run a from the pump a -8 supply to a inline 10micron filter up to the rear pass side fuel rail, cross over at the front to the drivers rail then out to the firewall mounted reg , then a -6 return to the cell. i also run a -8 vent, the fuel does get hot, the cell is between the mufflers and the heat comming off the exhaust runs right over it but the pump will work untill there is about 1/2 of fuel in the cell, so maybe 1.5 gallons left.
i run the Black braided hose which might help insulate the fuel a bit.
i couldn't be happier.
the system was put together with the help of Aeromotive and i think now i have a good handle on it.
my .02

[GregWeld]

Yep -- Way too complicated for a street car with EFI....

Unless you're running a twin turbo monster winger..... just run a couple of good filters -- a good pump -- and a pressure line and a return. It ain't rocket science unless you're going way big HP.

Some kind of sump helps with fuel slosh... doesn't make any difference if it's inside or outside (that's a matter of looks). You just don't want the intake uncovered and you don't want the return to aerate the fuel near the intake. A rear pickup point will help you on hard launches and when you're going up hill. Don't do what I did the first time around and mis mark your bung location.... mine ended up at the FRONT of the tank... DOH! All fixeeeeededed now.