What would a USCA pro-touring class look like??

[PTAddict]

Originally Posted by GregWeld

Personally I'd like to just see three "classes" with no rules for the classes. Rules and definitions are just a PITA and create too many other issues.

Pick a DATE for a cut off for an EARLY IRON class

The EARLY IRON wouldn't define "pro touring"... it's just all early cars.

Anything after that magic date is a LATE MODEL - all wheel drive - whatever...

Then have a "show car" class

I like the "Show cars" -- it's so kool to see people willing to build a "show car" and yet come out and put it at risk... they're generally not "racer" types - most are totally unprepared. Let 'em at least slug it out for a trophy against the other show cars without having to compete with real race cars.


Change the styling to what I've said in past -- "WHICH CAR WOULD YOU MOST LIKE TO DRIVE" and leave it at that. That's 3 picks - one for each "class". Done. Then run what ya brung.


You could still have an OVERALL CHAMPION -- but at least there would be a "class winner" and that would put some spark back into the eyes of the early iron guys and would be fun for the "SHOW CAR" people too... you could brag that you had the fastest show car at OUSCI and have a trophy to show for it.


The fun of the early events was just to watch ALL of the cars RUN -- it was less of a competition and more of a come out and run, and while there wasn't many spectators and no TV -- it was the coolest event ever because EVERYONE just came out and did the best they could do with what they had.


I'd also like to see them hand out TROPHIES instead of checks. Checks get spent and you have no memory to show down the road. TROPHIES are for keeps and every time you see it the memories flood in and bring a smile to your face. Those $500 BF Goodrich checks they handed out would buy a pretty nice trophy and it could have a big BFG on the top kinda like a Wally..... So BFG would be forever immortalized as being a part of the event.

I like all of this!

One other thing I'd like to see is an actual driving evaluation of the car by the judges - maybe they could drive the car a couple of laps (at low speeds) around the track, or ride along, or something, to get feel for the car's real comfort, amenities, and drivability. I think the Car Craft RSE event used to do something like this ...

[SSLance]

I reread this thread this morning and realized I put the cart before the horse a bit in my posts. I had my SCCA hat on a bit too quickly plus didn't realize the cars weren't split into the three normal classes at the OUSCI final.

So to add to my original proposal of what a PT class would\should look like, I'd also add "American Made" to my proposed PT class ruleset.



Here what I proposed to the SCCA for changes to their CAM classes for 2015:

These are all American made, street legal licensed and registered, 200 TW street tired cars to start with.

CAM = All current CAM cars with 275 or smaller tires, stock appearing interior, minimum 3200 pounds (edit to 3000 pounds*)
CAM-W = All current CAM cars with larger than 275 tires, somewhat altered interiors, minimum 3000 pounds
CAM-S = All current CAM-S cars (factory two seaters) and cars that don't fit into CAM or CAM-W

*I didn't realize the 1967 Camaro was only 3100 pounds from the factory so I'd leave the minimum weight for CAM at 3000 pounds as it is now.



A common goal to create a ruleset that allows car owners to build a car to compete in OUSCI, SCCA, ASCA and Good Guys on level playing fields is being worked on. The courses and competitions are different, SCCA is mainly autocross while at the OUSCI more attention is paid to the road courses...but a common ruleset between the three will help everyone creating a draw to get competitors to show at events and giving competitors a place to play competitively.

Everyone is going to have a bit of a different idea of how to set the ruleset that benefits themselves the most, I know I'm guilty of that. But most of us want the same thing overall...a place to play as competitively as possible.

I just want the ruleset to be kept as simple as possible and include as many cars as possible in their own competitive class(es). If you used the three classes listed above plus a class for the AWD import cars, just about every car that was at OUSCI last weekend would run competitively against similar type cars and have a shot. Not sure how you decide on the single Ultimate Street Car from those classes but maybe the one that scores the most points in their respective class ends up being the overall winner? Or you get an Ultimate Street Car winner from each class and all get the same recognition.

It is hard to not SCCA up the ruleset if you get my drift, but it seems you have to split it up at least a little bit to make it more fair for everyone. That should be the common goal. Trying to do it by make, model and year just isn't going to work, there are way too many modifications allowed and different types of body styles used in this type of an open class for that type of separation.

[camcojb]

Mark Stielow sent me his thoughts in an email this morning:

Pre-1980
Only 4 seaters
American Made
50% stock floor pans
Any 200 tread wear tires


Maybe 2 classes

Stock Chassis / Frame and no bigger that 275 tires

Modified chassis and mini tubbed any size tire

The easy way to go is work with the SCCA and make the CAM class the same as the Pro-Touring classes.

[SSLance]

At the 2014 SCCA Solo Nationals there were 3 cars (5 drivers) in CAM-T and 6 cars (7 drivers) in CAM-C (all newer than 1980). I don't understand the thought of excluding all of those cars and drivers from the PT game?

My scenario isn't that much different than Mark's except my way doesn't turn anyone away, it just moves them to a more competitive class for them.


2014 CAM Contemporary Entrants by finishing position:
1 2011 Chevrolet Camaro (would be in CAM-W)
2 1982 Ford Mustang (would be in CAM-W)
3 1985 Chevrolet Monte Carlo (would be in CAM)
4 2005 Ford Mustang (would be in CAM-W)
5 1982 Ford Mustang (would be in CAM-W)
6 2005 Ford Mustang (would be in CAM-W)
7 1988 Pontiac GTA (would be in CAM)


2014 CAM-Traditional Entrants by finishing position:

1 1967 Chevrolet Camaro (would be in CAM-W)
2 1964 Chevy Nova (would be in CAM)
3 1969 Chevrolet Camaro (would be in CAM)
4 1969 Chevrolet Camaro (would be in CAM)
5 1964 Chevy Nova (would be in CAM)

In both the Pro-Solo Invitational and the Solo Nationals, the cars noted with CAM-W all ran pretty similar times while the CAM cars were also very competitive with each other. I see no reason to separate them out by model year.

In our local SCCA region in just CAM, my 1985 Monte Carlo raced very competitively all year long against the 2011 Camaro above and a 2000 Pontiac WS6. Once the Camaro put on a good set of tires and some mods, he started beating us like a drum, but the Pontiac and I were both on the exact same tires and brakes and we ran nearly identical times all year long.

[dontlifttoshift]

50% stock floorpans

Hyptothetical, floorpans were rotted out from rocker to rocker so I made new ones because I can.

Quite honestly, SCCA can barely handle its own rules, I really don't think they need input on USCA. I believe SCCA should be looking to USCA for help.


This from section 2 of the USCA rules.

1. 5 points – will be awarded to each participant that presents their vehicle, within the
designated timeframe, to the designated location for judging.

This is 5 points that are just being given away anyhow. Use this as a "degree of difficulty" or something to that effect. If a horn, stereo, heater and fuel gauge can add up to 2 points certainly it is not unreasonable to use 5points to reward the guy who put above average effort into his car. It is the reponsibility of the car owner to "sell" his efforts to the DE judges. i.e. I moved the engine back 3" because race car and then I installed 75 pounds of sound deadener because street car.

[SSLance]

Originally Posted by dontlifttoshift

Quite honestly, SCCA can barely handle its own rules, I really don't think they need input on USCA. I believe SCCA should be looking to USCA for help.

I agree...and they are... Actually I believe there is a combined effort by all of the sanctioning bodies to work together to get them all on the same page.

Now, if we could just get Good Guys to relax on the Pre-73 only rules. I understand it for the car show purposes, but on the competition side they are leaving out a large portion of potential entrants (but maybe they are okay with that).

I saw my very first autocross run in person at the Scottsdale Good Guys show in March of 2010. I came back home and started trying to figure out how to do that with my car and haven't been to a Good Guys show since.

[96z28ss]

I have volunteered at both the Optima Challenge and RTTC events. I love going to see the pre 1980 cars run. I think that muscle cars are what made these events special. There are tons of late model cars racing in other series. The Optima Challenge was showcasing that the muscle cars with the help of the aftermarket parts were making them handle and perform like modern day cars. You can see how the muscle cars dominated this in the early years.

2008 Optima 6 out of 28 cars were newer than 1980
2009 Optima 11 out of 51 cars were newer than 1980
2010 Optima 13 out of 50 cars were newer than 1980
2011 Optima 19 out of 52 cars were newer than 1980
2012 Optima 24 out of 53 cars were newer than 1980
2013 Optima 25 out of 52 cars were newer than 1980
2014 Optima 61 out of 104 cars were newer than 1980

This started with pro-touring cars. I'd like to see them stay competitive in this series in some form. I'm not sure how you do it exactly.
As you can see the muscle cars are now less than half the field.

I'd also like to see the term Street car actually mean something. The car should pass a 50 state DOT inspection minus the emissions part.

[Ron Sutton]

Food for thought from the old racer guy that has been around the block ...

I can't think of any competition sanctioning body that has achieved long term success & staying power without multiple classes/divisions.

NHRA
IHRA
NASCAR
IMSA
TUDOR
CART
IRL
USAC
WoO
Sprint Cars
Micro Sprints
SCCA Autocross
SCCA Road Racing
SCCA Pro Racing
Trans Am
GoodGuys AX
NASA
AMA
Supercross
SCORE
Lucas Off Road Series
TORC
IKF
WKA
Superkarts
Track day organizations

I'm sure there are exceptions I haven’t thought of … and someone will post one or more up … but the model of long term success (staying power) is to have multiple classes or divisions. Having personally been involved in series building activities & committees with many of these organizations, I observed firsthand & heard from leaders the top reasons are:

A. After the novelty wears off of "just being able to participate" ... entrants that are way out of their league ... performance wise ... fall away. It was fun once or even a few times ... but eventually being a LONG WAY off pace gets boring, frustrating, depressing, etc, and these slower participants feel the series is "not for them" and become disenfranchised ... ultimately becoming disengaged ... going onto some other competition events that they "fit in" better. The problem this creates is a very small base of competitive entrants that run the events & a high number of entrant churn. In the early stages of a growing series everyone is excited. But as the series matures, and we churn through a lot of entrants, the series finds itself with lower & lower car counts.

IMHO: When someone says it was a "once in lifetime experience for them" ... oh crap ... that's a clue they won't be doing this much more.

B. Low car counts is the death of a series. Fans want to see a lot cars. Sponsors want to see a lot of cars & lots of fans. Even competitors want to see a lot a lot of cars & lots of fans. Other than a few "win cherry picker" type of competitors ... most people want to go where the action is. So everyone that matters ... wants to see more cars & more action. Right now, the series is rockin'. It's the long term that needs to be looked at.

C. Financial viability of any series is based on volume. Other than sponsor dollars ... which go away if the series isn't hot, exciting & growing ... the key to making a series work (i.e. pay the bills) ... are large numbers of entrant fees & fans buying tickets. You simply can’t make it work long term without sustainable numbers.

D. Having multiple classes or divisions allows a larger number of potential entrants to participate with others in performance ranges closer to their levels of talent, budget & car capabilities. Of course too many classes is bad also, because it's confusing & dilutes the series. The key is a FEW, well thought out classes/divisions. If you look at the most successful models, they typically have 3-6. The series with too many classes/divisions, have other issues.

E. The sub-classes help pay for the show. There are WAY more people who can compete at a lower level ... and they want to compete in the cool event … provided there is a place they fit in well. Their volume helps pay for the show. Plus, these are the guys that actually buy parts from the sponsors & displaying vendors, whereas the elite competitors get much of their products sponsored to them.

F. The lower classes feed the top class. Over time, after a competitor has figured stuff out & won in the lower levels, a small number of them trickle up & "feed" the top class.

---------------------------------------------

As some of you know, I have participated in over 2000 race events & attended as a spectator a few hundred more. As a 2nd time spectator at this year's Optima event, my observations are:

Wow, what a great event. My hat is off to Jimi, Cam & the staff.
* It was well ran. As well as any competition event can run with 100+ cars.
* The 2 different AX tracks, brake stop & road course events really made it interesting & fun for the entrants & spectators.
* They ran a smart, safer show by placing the cars in road course groups based on experience.
* I was leery of the LVMS parking lot road course with no elevation charge being boring, but it was a great venue.
* Kudos for choosing the layout that kept cars away from each other where the corners & run off areas are near each other.
* Great job of keeping it fun for participants & spectators.

P.S. I don't know Jimi or Cam personally.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

My 2 cents on classes/divisions ...
(And I accept my opinion means nothing - LOL)

1. I agree there needs to be one top class that crowns the Ultimate Street Car. That "Unlimited" class/division needs to keep the rules ... or lack of ... just as they are, IMHO. Although, a 2500-2600# minimum weight rule might prevent some crazy one-off build from ruining the show. In my experience, this lack of rules breeds innovation, creativity & lets the top minds & top drivers have a place to show what they can do. They are the “main event.”

2. I believe there needs to be a very small number of sub-classes where a winner is declared & recognized in each respective class, along with the top 3 to 5 placers. The rules need to be minimal, but short & smart to keep a creative person like myself from ruining it for others in the class.

3. I think the sub-classes & rules should be:

A. Early American Iron
* Originally manufactured in America as a steel body car, 1989 & before
* Annual production quantities of 100+.
* Minimum weight somewhere around 2900-3100#.
* No ringer drivers. Owner/owner's family/builder only.
* Double the points available for “street car” functional features.
* Otherwise … “game on” … with no build rules.

B. Late Model
* Any year sports car (Corvette, Viper, Shelby, etc).
* Any year import car.
* Any American produced car 1990 & newer.
* Minimum weight somewhere around 2600-2800#.
* AWD drive cars (or maybe they have to run in the unlimited class).
* Any driver (already doing it anyway & many of these cars are bought, not built).
* Double the points available for “street car” functional features.
* Otherwise … “game on” … with no build rules.

C. American Hot Rod
* Any American produced car 1954 & older. (Maybe 1959 & older? )
* Minimum weight somewhere around 2900-3100#.
* No ringer drivers. Owner/owner's family/builder only.
* Double the points available for “street car” functional features.
* Otherwise … “game on” … with no build rules.

P.S. My “no build rules” in each of these sub-classes is purely because these are still meant to be the Ultimate Street Car … of their class. Not the best “average” or “restricted” car of their class.

P.P.S. My 1989 & older suggestion is based on when cars really changed, not when the muscle car era was. No one considers a 1988 Monte Carlo SS a high tech performance car. The 90’s is when performance cars from Detroit really started a comeback. Maybe the date of 1989 isn’t the best ... so a better date could be chosen.

P.P.P.S. I think the 10 points given right now for meeting all of the street legality requirements is too low. Right now it is a no brainer to forego some of that to build a faster car. That was evident by NASA/TT level race cars running at the top of the speed charts at this year's event. If the points were worth more, the top competitors would figure out how to be fastest with those items.

5. A few clarifying details ... in my opinion …
A. Anyone could skip these sub-classes and go compete in the Unlimited class for the title of Optima Ultimate Street Car.
B. Almost everyone would still be competing for the "Overall" Ultimate Street Car Title. If you can bring a car that fits into one of the sub classes ... and outperforms everyone ... your car is the Ultimate Street Car winner. (Although I do feel that should forfeit your sub-class win.)
C. The winning car in each class at the year end event could compete in the sub-class again, with a different driver.
D. The winning driver in each class at the year end event (not the qualifying events) should move up to the Unlimited class next year.

6. I feel there are some KEY awards that should be added to the existing awards that the participants also strive for, such as:
* Best Street Car ... for the car you'd really like to drive often & take on a cross country tour.
* Best Show Car ... for the most impressive appearance, style, craftsmanship, etc.
* Best Truck ... for the most impressive truck in the competition.
* Farthest Driven … for the car actually driven to the event from the longest distance.
* Fan Favorite ... open to voting.

I feel the Pro-Touring/G-Machine community would support the “Early American Iron” sub-class strongly. This group is where the Pro-Touring companies like Speedtech, Ridetech, Detroit Speed, etc. could prove their products worthiness & frankly lead to more sales for their companies in their target markets.

When you look at who the sponsors & vendors are outside of Optima & BFG ... they are primarily companies focused on the Pro-Touring & Street markets. We need to make it worthwhile to them financially to stay involved. Then utilize the Late Model, Hot Rod & Unlimited classes to attract additional sponsors, participants & fans.

That’s all. LOL

[dontlifttoshift]

Hey Ron! That's pretty insightful, thanks!

[chetly]

Ron, what's a ringer driver? Danny Popp, Mark Steilow, Mike Maier, Kyle Tucker, Robby Unser? Danny is a seasoned vet at auto-x and has won OUSCI twice, Mark is a GM engineer and accomplished driver, Mike is a 7 time SCCA auto-x champion and as you know ran multiple years in USAC, Kyle races BAJA in a class 10 buggy, and Robby has how many Pikes Peaks wins and USAC championships?