B type spindles, what's the problem?

[SSDan]

I've seen several negative comments about changing from the stock spindles I have to a B style using GW uppers and lower A arms. What problem does it cause? Is it something major?

What's the solution for someone running 15" mags? I may upgrade to 17" in the future, but for now the 15's stay.

I also notice several members have the b style on their vehicles.

Thanks,

Dan

[TravisB]

the typical tall spindle swap that improves the negative camber gain during roll/bump conditions also lowers the FRCH even more than stock, increases bump steer more than stock (which is already borderline unacceptable), increases turning radius by ~10 feet, slows steering ratio even more, and really tears up the Ackerman


this is copy and pasted from the pro touring site.....a guy by the name of dennis 68 wrote it....he actually may show up here and elaborate on it! Did you try the a search

[SSDan]

Originally Posted by TravisB

the typical tall spindle swap that improves the negative camber gain during roll/bump conditions also lowers the FRCH even more than stock, increases bump steer more than stock (which is already borderline unacceptable), increases turning radius by ~10 feet, slows steering ratio even more, and really tears up the Ackerman


this is copy and pasted from the pro touring site.....a guy by the name of dennis 68 wrote it....he actually may show up here and elaborate on it! Did you try the a search

Thanks for the advice!

[sinned]

I thought that looked familiar Travis.

post #16:
Many of the ailments of running the tall spindle are not nearly as evident until you have removed the tall spindle and re-driven the car in the same parameters...that is when you kick yourself and ask "why the hell have I been living with this so long".

There is no fix for the bump steer. You would have to completely start from scratch including relocating the steering box and idler arm to correct it.



Andrew, you either have a fast ratio box or just don't remember how much quicker the steering was before the change, it slows it a bunch, it has to (mechanical equations are not subjective).



There is no fix for the increased turning radius, again, it’s a mechanical equation based on the length of the steering arm.

I'd like to add that while the increased radius is most noticeable trying to make u-turns it also shows during spirited driving where hand movement on the steering wheel, turns that normally wouldn't require repositioning of your hands (not ideal when trying to concentrate on your line) now require you to move your hands.

Travis already got post #10

post #7:
There are lots of better solutions out there, especiallly lately. ATS has the A/F/X spindle, Marcus at SC&C has had the tall Howe ball joints available for quite some time, Fatman has a tall spindle in the works, and I don't recall the name but there have been spindle extenders on the market for a couple decades now.


FRCH/RRCH= front and rear roll center height

In a perfect world the roll axis (the imaginary line that runs from the front roll center to the rear roll center) would run roughly perpendicular to the ground at around 6" or so. The prblem with running the front that high is that in most cases it would produce a jacking affect which could lead to very unpredictable handling, running the rear that low is nearly impossible due to ground clearance issues.

Most classic cars the FRCH is somewhere between -4 and 2", the rear is typically 16-24". Properly done the front can easily sit at 3-4" and the rear at 7-10"....much better roll axis overall.

[sinned]

A little something I whipped together a while back and just found:

The truth about the "tall spindle swap". To truly understand the tall spindle swap we first need to understand why we do it. In stock configuration on the 1st gen Camaro and 1st, 2nd, and 3rd gen "A" bodies the upper control arm runs from the cross shaft (or pivot) down to the upper ball joint. When the suspension goes into a bump condition (as the outside tire does during cornering) the suspension compresses and the upper control arm pivot point moves down. If you visualize what is going on you quickly realize that the upper arm is effectively increasing in length and moves the upper ball joint pivot point away from the centerline of the vehicle which increases camber. Since optimum handling occurs when the all of the tires tread is in contact with the ground, cambering positive away from the centerline significantly hurts this process.

Adding the tall spindles helps this phenomenon by placing the upper ball joint higher or equal to the upper arm pivot point. By doing this the arm becomes shorter during bump and decreases camber or pulls the camber negative and flattens out the tire contact patch with the pavement. Sounds great, what could go wrong?

Adding the tall spindles also changes a few other suspension geometry factors by design. The steering arm is relocated up and forward by quite a bit. This relocation changes the steering linkage geometry so drastically that it actually affects the steering ratio, bump steer, and turning circle. Turns that used to require minimal input from the steering wheel now will require actual movement of the hand placement on the wheel. U-turns become a thing of the past and counter steering is now a real chore, this is assuming you are using a smaller/sportier steering wheel. With the stock bus style wheel forget about any sort of control at all. Many claim it doesn’t bother them that much but I can tell you from 1st hand experience it sucks on a race track to have to reposition your hands for small direction changes when you should be concentrating on your line or vehicles.

Bump steer is the least annoying but most dangerous of the side affects. Although you won't experience it everyday while putting around town, when you do have to deal with it you won't like it. Bump steer is when the length of the tie rods changes throughout the wheel travel changing the toe-in/toe-out. The tall spindle swap typically results in about 3/8" of toe change throughout the wheel motion. This may not seem like a lot but going from 1/8" in to 1/4" out will definitely get your attention at freeway speeds

What is the point of all this? The point is that there are many alternatives that do not have the negative side affects. There are many other spindles available that do not change the steering geometry. There also some extended length ball joints and ball joint spacers that will effectively increase the length of the spindle.

I should point out that there are some out there marketing kits to "fix" bump steer in the tall spindle swap applications. This is not possible, there is nothing you can buy/do/make to change the steering arm on a cast spindle (safely). Do not get suckered in to buying the bump steer adjuster kits. The only true “fix” would be to relocate the steering box and idler arms as well as obtaining a different length center link to match the new steering arm length/height.

Now that the steering issues are out of the way the last negative side affect is that FRCH is not raised as it needs to be but rather lowered even further. Most”A” bodies will come in around -2” with the tall spindle and ~1.5” drop spring (typical drop for those going through the trouble of a tall spindle swap).

[conekiller13]

Dennis,

I'm not disagreeing with anything You said, but, I have the tall spindles on My Chevelle and have experianced non of those problems. My car seems to have no discernable bump steer. steering is very quick.and turning radius was fine untill I put in the 12:1 steering box. My Chevelle actually feels more nuetral than My STI. Just an observation.

[TravisB]

Originally Posted by dennis68

A little something I whipped together a while back and just found:

The truth about the "tall spindle swap". To truly understand the tall spindle swap we first need to understand why we do it. In stock configuration on the 1st gen Camaro and 1st, 2nd, and 3rd gen "A" bodies the upper control arm runs from the cross shaft (or pivot) down to the upper ball joint. When the suspension goes into a bump condition (as the outside tire does during cornering) the suspension compresses and the upper control arm pivot point moves down. If you visualize what is going on you quickly realize that the upper arm is effectively increasing in length and moves the upper ball joint pivot point away from the centerline of the vehicle which increases camber. Since optimum handling occurs when the all of the tires tread is in contact with the ground, cambering positive away from the centerline significantly hurts this process.

Adding the tall spindles helps this phenomenon by placing the upper ball joint higher or equal to the upper arm pivot point. By doing this the arm becomes shorter during bump and decreases camber or pulls the camber negative and flattens out the tire contact patch with the pavement. Sounds great, what could go wrong?

Adding the tall spindles also changes a few other suspension geometry factors by design. The steering arm is relocated up and forward by quite a bit. This relocation changes the steering linkage geometry so drastically that it actually affects the steering ratio, bump steer, and turning circle. Turns that used to require minimal input from the steering wheel now will require actual movement of the hand placement on the wheel. U-turns become a thing of the past and counter steering is now a real chore, this is assuming you are using a smaller/sportier steering wheel. With the stock bus style wheel forget about any sort of control at all. Many claim it doesn’t bother them that much but I can tell you from 1st hand experience it sucks on a race track to have to reposition your hands for small direction changes when you should be concentrating on your line or vehicles.

Bump steer is the least annoying but most dangerous of the side affects. Although you won't experience it everyday while putting around town, when you do have to deal with it you won't like it. Bump steer is when the length of the tie rods changes throughout the wheel travel changing the toe-in/toe-out. The tall spindle swap typically results in about 3/8" of toe change throughout the wheel motion. This may not seem like a lot but going from 1/8" in to 1/4" out will definitely get your attention at freeway speeds

What is the point of all this? The point is that there are many alternatives that do not have the negative side affects. There are many other spindles available that do not change the steering geometry. There also some extended length ball joints and ball joint spacers that will effectively increase the length of the spindle.

I should point out that there are some out there marketing kits to "fix" bump steer in the tall spindle swap applications. This is not possible, there is nothing you can buy/do/make to change the steering arm on a cast spindle (safely). Do not get suckered in to buying the bump steer adjuster kits. The only true “fix” would be to relocate the steering box and idler arms as well as obtaining a different length center link to match the new steering arm length/height.

Now that the steering issues are out of the way the last negative side affect is that FRCH is not raised as it needs to be but rather lowered even further. Most”A” bodies will come in around -2” with the tall spindle and ~1.5” drop spring (typical drop for those going through the trouble of a tall spindle swap).

This needs to be a sticky somewhere

[sinned]

Originally Posted by conekiller13

Dennis,

I'm not disagreeing with anything You said, but, I have the tall spindles on My Chevelle and have experianced non of those problems. My car seems to have no discernable bump steer. steering is very quick.and turning radius was fine untill I put in the 12:1 steering box. My Chevelle actually feels more nuetral than My STI. Just an observation.

Dan, I'll give you the same opportunity I offered to the others at PT. When I get the new suspension hung (hopefully in the spring), you are invited to go for a short spirited drive to experience the difference in a properly set up tall spindle/short steering arm chassis. I figure after enough of the current "tall" spindle owners have driven I can sit back and let you guys answer the "Effects of Running Tall Spindle" questions.