3 Competitours, which one and why?

[tyoneal]

Hello:

Obviously there are some fantastic companies listed on this site. That being said, with regards to Chassis/Suspension Suppliers vs. overall best performance product.

Assumption: Car 1969 Camaro (Reason - Used very often for evaluation by most manufacturers)

Handeling Charactoristics to evaluate or remark about:

a) Street Drivability
b) Drag Racing
c) Road Racing
d) Bang for the Buck

Which of the complete product lines do you think/know, can/will out perform the other competitors.

The competitors are:

1) DSE Makes a Complete Suspension Package (Front Subframe with Triangulated 4 link

2) Schwartz Makes a complete bolt on kit for the 69 Camaro

3) Lateral Dynamics also makes a suspension system for the Camaro

If there is another competitor that should be added please feel free to speak up.

If you were going to start a Camaro Project, who would you choose and why?

(I know this is a very difficult discussion, but it is one I don't think has been addressed from this perspective)

I have personally spoken with all three, and I come to the conclusion I either need three Camaro projects, or a three sided coin to flip. I don't have the knowledge or experiance to make an educated aurgument one way or another, so that is why I have posted it here.

Thanks in advance.

regards,

tyoneal

[XcYZ]

The DSE Quadra-link isn't triangulated, it's a paralled 4 bar with a panhard bar.

There isn't a perfect solution for the street, that's why this subject always turns negative. Besides 4 factors you listed, there are many more including packaging, cost, time to install, tuneability, availability of replacement parts, parts longevity, turn around time on manufacturing, etc. How about parts warranty and tech support? (covering everything from installation to setup to tuning questions)

Tires play a huge role in the overall performance, as do the shock and spring rates. How many have actually scaled their car and made spring rate choices accordingly? The correct part selection is every bit as important as having correct geomety and dynamics.

There will always be trade offs. What makes a great functioning track car generally makes for a poor riding street car. What makes for good tunability makes for poor packaging in a street car. There's no way that a blanket statement can be made that covers all suspension options for what is the best. There are just too many factors, and those factors weigh different with every individual that's building a car. You need to weigh all factors then decide accordingly.

I think we should have people list what factors are important to them when making a suspension upgrade.


Of course, all of this is just my opinion.

[Payton King]

Yea, what Scott said! He pretty much covered it in one post.

In 99% of the cases most people are building street cars. As shown at RTH, the top systems are perform pretty close to each other at that one event. I cannot speak for the ride or drive portion of that equation. Pick the one that gives you that warm , fuzzy feeling and don;t look back.

Unless you are willing to travel to take a test drive in each of the system before you purchase, you should have enough info to make a good decision.

[Garage Dog 65]

Excellent responce Scott. You're kinda like the guy behind the curtain in the Wizard of OZ. You're scary smart sir.

[Musclerodz]

You can add 21st Century Street Machines with a front and rear clip, Art Morrison with their new sub or max-g chassis, ATS and their new package for the front sub modifications, SC&C, Air Ride, need i go on......

DSE's combination of products are well documented and proven for driveability and realitive comfort

I don't know anything about the Schwartz chassis or have heard of any feedback on one, but that is not saying much

Lateral Dynamics is the only 3 link out there I know of being marketed and will put performance before ride quality. I am not saying it isn't comfortable, I have not rode in one yet, my statement is based on how I have heard Mark speak about his products. Mark knows his stuff as well

21st Century makes a nice product and have not heard any complaints for those using one

Art Morrison, One of the biggest in the business when it comes to chassis', don't know of any complaints here either

ATS has their new coil over set up, AFX spindles, excellent for the budget minded guy

SC&C has AFX spindles from ATS, coupled with adjustable upper arms for another buget minded setup, and Marcus knows his stuff as well.

Air Ride has proven their Airbar setup will keep up with most any non professional driver out there and lay down very respectable numbers on the skid pad and is well documented through their Track Challenges.

I would break down into what you think your goals are. Bling, performance, ride, budget? That should narrow it some, but in the end, Go with who you will feel will work best for you.

Mike

[James OLC]

About this time last year I found myself asking the exact same questions - well almost the exact same. This is what I can tell you from my experience:

First of all - my criteria (and please keep in mind that these were what I valued and what I was looking for - they may not be the same for you or anyone else).

1. I wanted a no compromise suspension set up with respect to performance focusing on road racing and open highway competition. I have built many first gen Camaros and have always had to compromise one place or the other and always wound up wondering how much better the car would have performed if I had not given in due to dollars or streetability considerations.

2. I needed a suspension set up that would be functional in multiple disciplines. While my focus was on road racing and open highway events like the Silver State Challenge, the One Lap of America race includes drag racing, road course racing, skid pads, and anything else that Mr. Yates dreams up (including dirt track racing a couple of years ago). Not to mention 5,000 miles of highways between events.

3. I did not want to built this car as a full frame car. Yes, this is contrary to #1. Right or wrong, I wanted to build this as a Camaro - not a race car with a Camaro shell. That being said, the next one will be the other way around.

Armed with those criteria I scoured every message board that I could find, called every contact that I knew and exchanged a ton of emails and phone calls with manufactures across the country. I did make an effort to visit as many manufactures as I could - business took me to SC, I spent an extra day and went to NC - and I looked at what others were doing. (Thanks to Scott and this board there is a ton of experience to tap into if you take the time and initiative).

At that point I felt like you do the day you get back from Sema - completely overloaded with information and ideas. And it took some time, and thought, and consideration of the pro's and con's of everyones products - and nearly all of them have both pro's and con's worth considering.

In the end I chose:

Front - American Touring Specialties. Despite the fact that I was convinced that I wanted (or needed) an aftermarket front subframe, I ultimately came to the conclusion that a modified stock subframe offered the best solution given the alternatives. Geometry won this one.

Rear - Lateral Dynamics. There is simply no better road racing suspension than a 3-link and LD has put together a package for F-bodies that is well engineered, outstandingly fabricated, and simply works.

That being said, Scott's comments earlier are 100% true - particularly with respect to the so called "secondary components" like shock, springs, and tires. I would hazzard to say that these choices are as important, if not more important, than the actual suspension systems. That was one of the other factors that I took into consideration with ATS and Lateral Dynamics - they not only understood this, they preached it.

Anyway, that is my experience and my opinon only. I can go into more detail with respect to the technical aspects of my choices if you're interested but since this post is probably longer than all of my previous posts combined it's time to stop for now.

[Bill Howell]

I agree with most of the above comments, however, if you choose a different car, say an A-body, the picture clears a bit. I am going thru a similiar game right now with my next project, a 70 chevelle and have made the following choice. I will use the AirRide system, but with a twist. I will have the ATS spindles just because I have been so impressed with them on my malibu. For an A-body, I feel the Air Ride system is the best choice and will be flexible enough to do drag racing and road racing good with some practice and trial and error with settings. I will know more soon.

[tyoneal]

Since clarification was requested, I will add this.

Assume all the same Tires and wheels for each.

Is there any true distinsion between all the choices other than the engeineering?

Or Could it be said the 3-link is the closest thing to an all out track rear end suspension.

At the other end of the scale would be the Air Ride Tech, which would allow the choice of good handeling for the street and the option of a comfortable ride,

With the rest of them falling somewhere in between?

[ProdigyCustoms]

Just keep in mind that the Air Ride car was only .08 behind the DSE car at Run Through the Hills Camaro shootout!

[Steve Chryssos]

Originally Posted by tyoneal

......I have personally spoken with all three, and I come to the conclusion I either need three Camaro projects, or a three sided coin to flip.....

Correct. For a multi-purpose street car, you probably need a three sided coin. Better yet, roll the dice: Six sides times two--there's a lot of good choices.

If it helps, fly out to Long Island and I'll take you for a drive in a variety of cars with very different suspension setups. With regards to actual roadholding for a street car, it's a coin toss. They all work well because--in reality--the cars are not being pushed very hard 90% of the time.

Swing the pendulum to one extreme (race) or the other (comfort/show) and I'll give you a differet answer. But for a "does everything well" street car, the biggest difference that I have experienced comes from comparing front steer "rack" cars to rear steer "box" cars. And the link rear suspensions ride way nicer than leaf springs.

If you have narrowed it down to three choices that all spin your wheels, spend time weighing the secondary considerations that Scott outlined such as installation difficulty, exhaust packaging, price, etc.

If I could wave a magic wand (mine's broken), I'd order me up a Art Morrison Max-G 3 Link full frame kit. But that's just me. I already have a nicely sorted aftermarket front clip. I want to take things to a whole other level with a channeled body thru frame exhaust and all. I suddenly have the urge to cut the floor and chassis our of a perfectly good, fully functional car.

It's delicious!