Balanced vs Excessive

[Teetoe_Jones]

Why do we build our cars to the point of wretched excess?
Jody, did you ever hook up your ZL1 with the Pro-Charger?
Stuart, same question- Can you drive it daily, or is it a hand full of deadly metal that requires 110% attention at all times?
Where do we draw the line on what is 'enough' power? With tire replacement records? With speeding ticket numbers? When is it finally enough?
I know that we all love to drool over the car with a 806 big block with twin turbos feeding a 871 roots blower into a direct port Nitrous setup, but why the hell do we need that?
Tire adheasion should be our factor in power selection. What good is 935 hp if you burn off 500 miles of tire tread each time you hammer it off the line? I'd feel embarassed if I got spanked by a 2001 Camaro Z28 that could kill me from a dead start because I'm stuck at the crosswalk with a plume of smoke showing how much 'power' I have. Thankfully a stop light to stop light race rarely goes into the triple digit speeds required for a car with gobs of power to catch a car like the Z28 off the line. ( I don't endorse street racing)

What about suspension setups? Is there such thing as over the top in this area? Sure I could be driving a full race chassis with uni-lug spindle mounted rims, air jacks for lightning quick tire changes, and in car adjustable sway bars, but could I ever use a car like that to its full ablilty?
Why have a road race chassis if you don't intend to use it on the track?

I can think of a nice case of a balanced car-
Stielow's Thrasher.
It had a well designed chassis system (not exotic custom parts) balanced engine, decent sized tires (No mini tubbing) and was run at the One Lap Of America with very good results.
I'd like to see if the Mule can turn a faster lap time than the Thrasher.
I know I'm comparing Apples to Oranges, but let's break it down:

Thrasher-
1969 Chevy Camaro
406 small block- 600 hp
T56 six speed
Stock front subframe with Global West Bushings, and 1" taller spindle, Landrum weight jacks, and Koni shocks
Landrum rear leaf springs with Global West bushings, Koni shocks and a Currie 9" ford rear with 3:93 rear gear
17x8.5 BBS rims (front) 18x9.5 BBS rims (rear)

Mule-
1969 Chevy Camaro
Twin Turbo'd small block (1100+ hp in full trim)
T56 six speed
Wayne Due C4 front subframe with Global West bushings, and QA1 coil overs
Custom designed 4 link rear with Currie 9" rear end
18x9.5 Fikse rims (front) 18x12 Fikse rims (rear)

Very different setups on these cars, but I still feel that the Thrasher would turn a faster lap time due to its well balanced setup, and good power ratio. I think the Mule would spin tires out of corners, possibly creating oversteer, and slower lap times.

So Charley- Which do you think is faster?

What do you guys think on all this stuff? Should we build excessive cars to 'one up' the neighbors, or just build a balanced all around car that defines Pro-Touring? We are the ones that will shape this hobby in the future, so lets not go the way of Pro-Street- Where we can't back up our excessive, trailer queen show cars.
Tyler

[camcojb]

You're forgetting one real important thing, as regards to turbos. You can control the boost. I have a computer controlled boost system which can ramp up by gear and rpm. It learns what gear you're in. I can start with no boost in low gear if I want and ramp it up to whatever the tires will hold; same with second , third, etc. So other than some time spent getting it figured out as far as what the tires will hold, it will act like traction control. Big difference is that on a track with a decent straight and the car hooked, would you rather have 600 HP or 1000? Which will be in front at the end of the straight?

Then if that isn't enough they make standalone traction control systems that are very sophisticated and can be installed on any of our cars.

The yellow car was driven every day that I wasn't upgrading it and the weather was nice. Could it hook? Not in the lower gears, but I'd race anyone from 50-55 mph up. It would pull from 55-130 in 3 seconds flat in 4th gear; had just enough load in that gear to not fry the tires. But yes, that car could bite you. It now is only running 7 psi of boost but still with a 540 it makes a ton of torque and I'd imagine traction is low.

Jody

[Teetoe_Jones]

Good point about the traction control systems, and the boost controller.
I agree that on a straight section of track, we'd all like the extra 350 horses to power us to the front of the pack, but if you can only catch up in the straights, you'll get left in all the corners.
The Yellow car looked like it was a handfull to drive. I remember seeing a video in front of Clill's house that showed him burning tires through 3rd gear.

The only drawback to the standalone traction contol boxes is that most of them need a wheel speed reference. While it isn't impossible to retrofit a pick up for each wheel, it is not a bolt on item for most cars.

Just a question-
Do you think a 2800 lb car with 750 hp will beat the 3300 lb car with 1000hp to the end of the straight?

Plus, you've been in both the Mule and Thrasher (I think you were even lucky enough to drive them too), which would be the track king?
Tyler

[camcojb]

The turbos wouldn't make you corner slower really, so the car with more power AND traction should win all the way around. That's assuming equal handling. The turbo car without traction would be slower out of the corners which gives the edge to the other car.

The controller I have is easy to set up, but the traction control deal is supposed very easy to set up also. It would need wheel sensors, but my friend claims it is easy to do. I won't be trying it unless I'm unhappy with the computerized boost controller.

I did drive both cars, but the Mule was pre-turbo, so it was giving up 100 HP to the Thrasher or so. It handled every bit as well as the Thrasher but was no match for speed. The Thrasher, as you noted, is a very well balanced car that would be fairly easy to drive fast.

You'll have to ask Charley his view of the Mule now; with the boost turned down as it is now to app. 700-750 HP I think it moves pretty well without getting you into trouble.

The yellow car was a handful at 15 psi of boost. The dyno video and driving video was on only 7 cylinders, there was a plug wire off when Charley was doing those videos. On 8 cylinders it was a thrill but not the fastest way around the track. My point was to build 1000 HP on 91 without intercooling and still be able to drive it and retain decent mileage. It actually got 19 mpg on the freeway at a 75-80 mph cruise.

Jody

[hotwheels]

i don't think it is excessive or doing one up better then your neighbor. To me, it show's your true love for your car and what can be done if you truly take the time and work with um........i would also have to say, in the 1320, my money would be on the 1100hp car......not sure bout the street, that is alot different.....anyways, no big comment, just be greatful that you are able to do these kinds of things with your car's....most people only get to see them in magazines, if you know what i mean................hotwheels of turborides

[XcYZ]

You know, the best person to ask about the different levels of HP in the Mule (turbo and pre-turbo) and the Thrasher would be Mark. Maybe he will chime in.

[clill]

If you put me against me in the Mule and the Thrasher on the track, the Thrasher would win. Thrasher is a better balanced car. The power is managable. There is at least 200 lbs added to the front of the Mule because of the added turbos. Maybe a good driver like Mark could handle all the power of the Mule on a track but I doubt if I could. Thrasher has a 614 hp 427 smallblock that is a ball to drive on the street and the track. I watch all these supposed track cars being built that are gonna be 1000 hp+ and wonder who is gonna drive them ? How many have driven a 1000 hp car ? It is a handful. Tito... As per your other thread about twin turbos for 50-50. You need to get it finished. Do a LS1 or a C5R type 427 without turbos . Make 600 plus hp and you will be thrilled. I did the twin turbos on the Mule because I wanted more than the 525 hp it had and there were always twin turbos kinda planned for it. I think the car turned out killer and I love driving it but it is no longer the ultimate track car for a guy like me. I am fortunate enough to have enough money to piss away on several cars so I can try different stuff. Most of my driving is on the street and we have plenty of country roads around here so the excess of twin turbos is fun but for a track car that also sees street duty a 600 plus NA car will be a ball. Get the car finished Teetoe, without turbos and you will be done sooner and still have fun. If anybody wants a fun track car just copy the Thrasher.

[Teetoe_Jones]

Charley-
Thanks for responding to this. I am pleased to hear that 600hp is a blast for track days. I want a managable car for all around use, and I think I have the perfect combo. I for one have never driven a car with more than 550 hp, and that was INSANE.
I don't have any on track driving experince, so I want to be able to drive my own car for testing. I am sure the pleasure of having it done, along with loads of power to keep the competition at bay will be enough to make me smile for years to come.

Stuart- You responded as I did, so I needed to add you into this-
Did you drive the car before DSE got a hold of it? If so, is it easier to drive now that the power levels are lower? I would think not having to work 110% on keeping the car sticking to the pavement in the intended direction would be a good thing.

I agree about upgrading later- If I get used to the power of the car, and I feel it could use a shot in the arm, a set of turbos could be retro-fitted. Just look at the Mule. It has about 1/2 the room up front as I do in 50/50 (7" engine setback) and W2W still managed a great package that works as great as it looks.
Kurt at Wheel 2 Wheel will be handling my 302 crossram LS1 engine setup in house. I have no doubt in my mind that the engine will produce the power I want reliably.


What do you guys think about the chassis excess? Is there an over kill for a PT car?
Tyler

[clill]

Stuarts Yellow car before detuning was a car you had to really pay attention to when playing with the throttle. Having Kurt at W2W do your engine is a great decision. I had a 02 ZL1 with a 600 hp C5R and it hauled ass and sounded great and got great mileage......And you have no track experience ? I'll race you.......

[zbugger]

Originally Posted by Teetoe_Jones

What do you guys think about the chassis excess? Is there an over kill for a PT car?
Tyler

I don't really think so, Tyler. Just as long as it isn't something that you really don't like the feel of, i think it's fine. Having tuneable parts is only something that you can learn to appreciate. After tuning the Koni's on my buddy's Honda, I really want to be able to adjust my chassis more. It's just another little thing that I'll have to learn to do. While I've only had the opportunity to drive upto 400-450 hp, that car could have done with more suspension. There are little things you can do on the street to make sure that you have a good setup. Jsut don't do it in traffic. I don't. Suspension and chassis excess can be fun, just as long as you know how to tune it.