What would a USCA pro-touring class look like??

[Ron in SoCal]

Originally Posted by PTAddict

This is going to be tricky. Making a simple rule like:

Must have a VIN and model year prior to 1980

is a starting point. Only thing about that is it still leaves the door open for people to build full-on tube frame composite-bodied race cars with lights. You may or may not care that the bar to be competitive continually demands more money and more specialization. Even a car like Hobaugh's 73 Camaro, beautiful as it is, is a stretch by most people's definition of "street car". So where do you draw the line, if anywhere?

BTW, anyone who regularly runs their PT car in the advanced classes of HPDE events is under no illusion that the driver can make up the difference against a stripped, fully modded 2900 lb C5 or C6 Vette. Physics is physics.

Totally agree with PTA above.

The part in bold was evidenced this weekend.

[camcojb]

Let me put it this way... the older cars won't be competitive on the road course. The styling portion may equalize things a bit. The AWD's have an advantage on the speed stop and autocross much of the time (depending on course length and layout), with the late models in the mix. Muscle cars can win here, but not with yesterdays line up of cars. Where do the older muscle cars shine?

[camcojb]

Originally Posted by SSLance

Also...
I was under the impression that there was a GT2, GT3, and AWD winner at OUSCI...is that not true?

That is not true. In the qualifiers they are that way, the finals are all one class.

[camcojb]

Originally Posted by SSLance

In that example, the 5th gen is a stipped interior race car and the 2nd Gen is a full interior car race car. The 5th Gen may be a touch faster than that 2nd Gen, but it's not night and day faster like if it was paired against an older muscle car on 275s.

A driver change in either of those two Camaros will make more a difference in times ran than mods to an older car on small tires ever will.

Let me put it this way, how many of the older muscle car/PT cars that you are afraid will be run off if they can't compete...run a front tire larger than 275?

The fifth gen is still heavier than the second gen I think, but I'm not positive of that. Both are great drivers, and the fifth gen was several seconds faster on the road course yesterday. I don't think the fifth gen had bigger tires, they both had similar tire widths, put them both on 275's and I don't expect any change in which will be faster.

[camcojb]

Guys,

This is not a complaint thread. I loved the event, Jimi and USCA did a GREAT job, and this one was as fun as all the others I've attended.

I was just wondering what you guys thought of having a muscle car class, and what rules/year cutoffs, etc. would there be if there was one. I think with the current rules and competition, if you want to win the whole deal you're going to be better off with something much past our muscle car era. Although it's cool to see the protouring cars be competitive, I think it's reached the point competition-wise that they're at a big disadvantage against the current group of cars competing.

I do NOT want to see the newer stuff eliminated, they're the best of the best. Watching the Evo launch in the autocross and win the event or watching Danny Popp just drive away from the fastest group in his 2003 Vette was awesome. Just thought it may be cool to have an older car class, say pre-1980 or whatever.

[SSLance]

Originally Posted by dontlifttoshift

Lance, you make no mention of weight are you just planning on staying with the current under/over 3,000 pounds and then adding under/over 275 mm tires?

Either that or bump the minimum up to 3300-3400 pounds for the 275 and under class. It won't really matter as most of those cars with full interiors and stock sheet metal weigh over 3500 pounds anyway. Bumping it up a little may discourage cars like the white monster from throwing some interior panels in, bolting on some 275s and running that class.

Originally Posted by Valve Lash

By the way, this thread will probably not accomplish much. There are way too many alpha males and type A personalities with bright ideas and big egos to ever come to an agreement on much of anything, but maybe it will spark some type of debate within the Optima group.

I disagree. I know for a fact that the SCCA is highly interested in this conversation and was on hand last weekend at OUSCI working with the USCA folks as well as the Good Guys folks trying to find a common ground for all three series to work together so we (you and I) can build cars and take to all three event types and run competitively.

Originally Posted by camcojb

Where do the older muscle cars shine?

Against other muscle cars on similarly sized rubber...in all three event types

[camcojb]

Originally Posted by SSLance

Against other muscle cars on similarly sized rubber...in all three event types

Yeah, but they're not racing against other muscle cars for the title, they're racing against everything there.

[Al Moreno]

Originally Posted by camcojb

The fifth gen is still heavier than the second gen I think, but I'm not positive of that. Both are great drivers, and the fifth gen was several seconds faster on the road course yesterday. I don't think the fifth gen had bigger tires, they both had similar tire widths, put them both on 275's and I don't expect any change in which will be faster.

Jody, if I remember correct, Kyle had told me the fifth gen was 3700 plus lbs. They were trying to look for ways to drop weight as its still was a pretty heavy car. So I think your right the fifth gen is heavier but I'm not sure.

[ironworks]

The 5th gen comes from the factory in a much closer representation of what is being raced at the event. About 20% of the original 2nd gen camaro remains and the 20% is the body and ornamental stuff. The 5th gen is nearly stock on comparison.

Believe it or not automotive engineers have learned a little bit since 1970.

You can only bolt so much stuff on a car to go that fast. Now it will take a complete slate requiring massive fabrication to even be competitive top 10 wise.

I'm gonna guess this will be the equivalent to Hot Rod Magazines Drag week Unlimited class very soon.

[SSLance]

Originally Posted by camcojb

Guys,

This is not a complaint thread. I loved the event, Jimi and USCA did a GREAT job, and this one was as fun as all the others I've attended.

I was just wondering what you guys thought of having a muscle car class, and what rules/year cutoffs, etc. would there be if there was one. I think with the current rules and competition, if you want to win the whole deal you're going to be better off with something much past our muscle car era. Although it's cool to see the protouring cars be competitive, I think it's reached the point competition-wise that they're at a big disadvantage against the current group of cars competing.

I do NOT want to see the newer stuff eliminated, they're the best of the best. Watching the Evo launch in the autocross and win the event or watching Danny Popp just drive away from the fastest group in his 2003 Vette was awesome. Just thought it may be cool to have an older car class, say pre-1980 or whatever.

I agree completely. They want us to come and participate in their events and we want a place to run and feel like we are at least on the same playing field as others. There has to be a way to make it all work and I'm certain the powers that be are crunching numbers to make it work.

There is no reason that the factory late model cars, stockish appearing muscle (PT) cars, and the outlaw over the top race cars on street tires can't all attend the same types of events and share time running together. We are all there for the same common goal. The ruleset just needs a bit of fine tuning to level the fields a bit.