1969 Camaro Project questions

[partsguy57]

Originally Posted by cjsgarage

Subframes are easy to swap out. 3.5 hours. Depends on what needs to be installed onto it also. Steering box, steering linkages, engine mounts, trans mounts. Add accordingly.

Count on a mini tub installation taking about forty hours. It's hard for me to imagine how long it would take when trying to preserve the outside paint. There's special workings to not get weld spatter or heat onto the outside panels. Let alone be cutting, grinding and shaping neat them.

Far subframe connectors require the entire interior to be removed. Part of it will be done for the tuba but it does take time to remove front and rear seats, seat belts, carpet, wiring, etc. then time to cut the floor pan (and measuring) and weld them in. I'd say it would take me 6 hours to be realistic.

Gas tanks are easy. Half hour. Unless you have a bolt lockup. Then it could be an hour or two. Let's half half an hour. But there's also fuel lines. Feed, return from regulator, filter, and running it up the engine. Also removing the former lines that fed it and the charcoal canister line if it was present. Three hours. Maybe four now.

Dash. They install quick. Wiring, not so much. At least four hours. You're talking about running new fuel gauge sender wires, new VSS wires since they didn't come in a 69, and sender wires for engine vitals. Oh yeah. And removing the speedo cable.

Wiper motor is no problem. Wiring is not the same, as it adds more speeds and has a different switch. An hour.

Firewall plate? You must remove the entire front clip to do this. At least on gender and inner fender. It took me almost ten hours to get the front clip off, surface prepped, straight and welded. The welds must be done in stitches, not in one single pass--so as not to warp the panel.. Then I had to body work the welds so it looked like it belonged and paint the firewall. I think my paint guy had another twenty five hours in that.

Vintage air takes me around six to eight hours depending on how disassembled the car is and how complicated it is to crimp and run the hoses.

Roll cage. I don't know. I haven't had to do one in a 69. Maybe 5 if it was all bolt in.

Brakes could easily be twelve or fourteen hours if you count the time it takes to hang them on all four corners, hang the master and run new lines front to rear. Plus bleeding them. Bear isn't as bad as wilwood to bleed, but it's at least a half an hour. I usually have to spend an hour to get it right.

Column is two and a half hours.

Wiring the LS7 could take ten hours of you want to beautify the harness. Probably more. You're talking about adding wires for electric fans, speedometer, reverse lights, oxygen sensors, MAF, and gauges to the engine.

Plus dressing the engine. The accessory drive kit to work with Vintage air takes a couple hours to assemble. It alway takes me at least six hours to tune a car. Maybe less if it was just headers. But installing the oil pan, headers harness all takes time.

Alignment, too. The new suspension won't be set up out of the box. There's another hour.
Exhaust front to rear is a couple hours. Plus reassembly of interior and verifying fender figment to hood, to door, to header panel and valance are time consuming.

I'd say 150 hours could get filled up darn quick.

I billed a 68 at 88 hours once and probably only charged for half of what I did. I probably realistically spent about 240 hours on the car. Plus research time and "learning" time--time I spent going slow so I could understand. I can't charge two hours for a one hour job if it's my fault I'm going slow. At least, not in my mind.

I'm sorry not trying to be rude. Your dreaming with these times.

Sent from my SM-G920R4 using Tapatalk

[rebelceb]

Originally Posted by partsguy57

I'm sorry not trying to be rude. Your dreaming with these times.

Sent from my SM-G920R4 using Tapatalk

So do you have a time estimation to contribute? Not trying to be rude either, I was just always taught to offer an alternative answer if disputing something.

I don't mean to be vague here either, I will tell everyone how many hours I have been quoted, I just want to get an idea so my answer influence anyone.

[ironworks]

Originally Posted by rebelceb

First off, thanks for the responses! They have helped so far, and hopefully I can quantify my questions a little more and help narrow some things down!

I feel like I should leave this thread alone, but I can tell you there is no way anyone will be happy with the job your asking to be done at 500 hours.

The actual scoop of labor your inquiring about is vastly undersold with the punch list you have.

Example 24 hours to install an LS7 with t56 is an absolute joke. Not possible.

I don't want you to get tricked or fooled into thinking this is easier then some people in this thread are trying to under sell it. Greg is pretty close to right on his 100k comment.

I would encourage you to take your punch list and truly break it down to all the steps you know about. It doesnt matter if you know what your doing. Take your best guess. Just that first step is really 2 pages long. if you break it down. Make a step by step list of the entire job and you will start to grasp what is really going on. Don't worry about custom options, AN hoses, mil spec connectors, relocated coils, super bad ass air intake.

Actual disassembly of car
Assembly of engine in sub
All plumbing
Radiator
dry sump - include mounting dry sump tank and breather
fuel system
air intake
engine breather system
power steering hoses
AC hose plumbing
routing engine wiring
fabrication for trans tunnel
install engine drive system
......


I don't have the time to go on and on. Just that first step could be a few weeks. Easy.

[Vega$69]

Originally Posted by ironworks

Example 24 hours to install an LS7 with t56 is an absolute joke. Not possible.

You can definitely install an LS and T56 in 24 hours. However as stated you can easily spend triple that or more in wiring, mounting the ECM and fuse box, cold air, tunnel mod for the T56 ( I use the Speedtech tunnel cover and you can spend a full day getting finished up from start to finish) and figuring out radiator hoses and so on.

As I posted I spent 400-500 hours on my car after the DSE quadralink, minis, rear end, roll bar and the firewall was smoothed.

That's the reason for a very detailed all inclusive contract with the shop. If you agree to an hourly rate based on an estimate you'll end up getting hosed big time.

[ironworks]

Originally Posted by Vega$69

You can definitely install an LS and T56 in 24 hours. However as stated you can easily spend triple that or more in wiring, mounting the ECM and fuse box, cold air, tunnel mod for the T56 ( I use the Speedtech tunnel cover and you can spend a full day getting finished up from start to finish) and figuring out radiator hoses and so on.

As I posted I spent 400-500 hours on my car after the DSE quadralink, minis, rear end, roll bar and the firewall was smoothed.

That's the reason for a very detailed all inclusive contract with the shop. If you agree to an hourly rate based on an estimate you'll end up getting hosed big time.

Did I miss something that said, he didn't want the LS7-T56 combo to run when complete?

[rebelceb]

Originally Posted by ironworks

Did I miss something that said, he didn't want the LS7-T56 combo to run when complete?

OK, you seem knowledgable, so are you willing for offer an estimated range that you feel is an appropriate number or are you only wanting to dispute what everyone else is saying without offering your own advice?

I posted this because I genuinely want to know, not to start an argument or a debate.

[Vega$69]

Originally Posted by ironworks

Did I miss something that said, he didn't want the LS7-T56 combo to run when complete?

I believe we are saying the same thing just a different way.

[Blake Foster]

Originally Posted by cjsgarage

Subframes are easy to swap out. 3.5 hours. Depends on what needs to be installed onto it also. Steering box, steering linkages, engine mounts, trans mounts. Add accordingly.

Count on a mini tub installation taking about forty hours. It's hard for me to imagine how long it would take when trying to preserve the outside paint. There's special workings to not get weld spatter or heat onto the outside panels. Let alone be cutting, grinding and shaping neat them.

Far subframe connectors require the entire interior to be removed. Part of it will be done for the tuba but it does take time to remove front and rear seats, seat belts, carpet, wiring, etc. then time to cut the floor pan (and measuring) and weld them in. I'd say it would take me 6 hours to be realistic.

Gas tanks are easy. Half hour. Unless you have a bolt lockup. Then it could be an hour or two. Let's half half an hour. But there's also fuel lines. Feed, return from regulator, filter, and running it up the engine. Also removing the former lines that fed it and the charcoal canister line if it was present. Three hours. Maybe four now.

Dash. They install quick. Wiring, not so much. At least four hours. You're talking about running new fuel gauge sender wires, new VSS wires since they didn't come in a 69, and sender wires for engine vitals. Oh yeah. And removing the speedo cable.

Wiper motor is no problem. Wiring is not the same, as it adds more speeds and has a different switch. An hour.

Firewall plate? You must remove the entire front clip to do this. At least on gender and inner fender. It took me almost ten hours to get the front clip off, surface prepped, straight and welded. The welds must be done in stitches, not in one single pass--so as not to warp the panel.. Then I had to body work the welds so it looked like it belonged and paint the firewall. I think my paint guy had another twenty five hours in that.

Vintage air takes me around six to eight hours depending on how disassembled the car is and how complicated it is to crimp and run the hoses.

Roll cage. I don't know. I haven't had to do one in a 69. Maybe 5 if it was all bolt in.

Brakes could easily be twelve or fourteen hours if you count the time it takes to hang them on all four corners, hang the master and run new lines front to rear. Plus bleeding them. Bear isn't as bad as wilwood to bleed, but it's at least a half an hour. I usually have to spend an hour to get it right.

Column is two and a half hours.

Wiring the LS7 could take ten hours of you want to beautify the harness. Probably more. You're talking about adding wires for electric fans, speedometer, reverse lights, oxygen sensors, MAF, and gauges to the engine.

Plus dressing the engine. The accessory drive kit to work with Vintage air takes a couple hours to assemble. It alway takes me at least six hours to tune a car. Maybe less if it was just headers. But installing the oil pan, headers harness all takes time.

Alignment, too. The new suspension won't be set up out of the box. There's another hour.
Exhaust front to rear is a couple hours. Plus reassembly of interior and verifying fender figment to hood, to door, to header panel and valance are time consuming.

I'd say 150 hours could get filled up darn quick.

I billed a 68 at 88 hours once and probably only charged for half of what I did. I probably realistically spent about 240 hours on the car. Plus research time and "learning" time--time I spent going slow so I could understand. I can't charge two hours for a one hour job if it's my fault I'm going slow. At least, not in my mind.

YOU must be talking about disassembling the car, because exhaust takes slightly longer than 2 hours??? what are you talking about??

12 hours to install a complete brake system including ne lines not a chance.

I AM WITH RODGER when can you start!!! in our experience Rodger and Mike are RIGHT on at the 1:1 parts to labor cost (on a full build ) I would even starch it to 1.15 parts to 1 labor. when you include paint we just did a 67 minor body mods ZL1 hood insert in a factory cowl hood the car had NO RUST painted
black and color sanded with the sheet metal work it was 28,000.00 took 8 weeks of labor.
Greg is also correct 100,000 is a good starting point for a full redo. I have a 69 here that will probably end up for sale as it IS THIS EXAMPLE CUSTOMER HAD grand IDEAS and not enough money.

[ironworks]

Originally Posted by rebelceb

OK, you seem knowledgable, so are you willing for offer an estimated range that you feel is an appropriate number or are you only wanting to dispute what everyone else is saying without offering your own advice?

I posted this because I genuinely want to know, not to start an argument or a debate.

This industry is not like automotive repair. There is not one way to install those parts. So pitting one person's work against another bid is not fair or logical. We do everything on a time and materials basis. We do mostly repeat work for the same few guys who keep us loaded up with work. They don't come to my shop because we are cheap. They come here because they trust us, First and foremost. They come here because of what we are capable of. They come here because we try to do our absolute best. Are we cheap? Nope.

You have to decide the level you want. Do you just want those parts installed as they came from the supplier? Or do you want to paint this and coat that and make it yours? Do you want some one to just assemble your parts or do you want some one to build you a nice car? Those may sound like the same thing but they are not.

I usually skip these threads as it turns into an internet message board ego fest of who can do it better for less and the guys who build these cars charge way to much. And some guy in his garage with a pair of side cutters and auto zone battery cables can do the same install as DSE for 10% of the cost. Bullcrap. You get what you pay for.

If you looking for me to give a number, stop reading now and go take your list of really nice parts to the lowest bidder and ride his ass that it takes too long and costs way more then you thought. I hate to say it, but I'm beginning to think people just need to learn the hard way. I think that mentality is bad for the industry, but there is no way to explain to some one how much work it really takes to do some thing nice.

Building cars is like buying a steak dinner. You can go to Sizzler and get a New York Strip with a Salad for what 9.99?

You can go to the Outback and get something similar for 17.99

You can go to Ruth Chris and get just the steak for 45 bucks and still need the side and the salad.

If you can't taste the difference in a 60 dollar dinner go to Sizzler. If you think Sizzler is like jerky you might pay more for the better meal. Some people only want Ruth Chris steakhouse and are willing to pay for it. Some people go to an even better steak.

Can you install and LS7 and T56 in 24 hours? I'm sure some one can. Will it look and taste like a dinner at Sizzler? I guarantee. Will you have issues? I'm positive. Can you buy dinner at Sizzler cheaper then you can buy a quality piece of meat at the store?

So why would you want to buy the best parts you can and have them installed by the cheapest bidder. I'm guessing DSE would get 200k for the job you asking about. No one is going to tell you that on the phone.

If you keep it simple you probably have 60k in parts. In a 1:1 ratio that's 120k for what your asking?

You would be money ahead to just buy the car your asking to build. Someone has done this and is willing to sell it for the cost of parts some where. I'm sure.

[cjsgarage]

Rodger, Blake: I admit that the numbers are low. There are no doubt ancillary items that tag along. I usually like to redo the engine harness myself. That alone usually takes 16 hours to lay, sheath and cut to length/recrimp the ends.

Original Poster: I think that if you want it perfect, it's a billable hours deal. But I'm think I was more like Todd's answer in that this would get it set on the ground. It no doubt needs probably another two and a half weeks of work for rear end set up/driveshaft angles, underbody coatings or prep/paint, front end wiring, dash wiring, cage prep and paint, blah blah blah. Maybe more than two and a half weeks. I've never gotten a build of that scope done sooner than six months.

And I also tend to give stuff away. I guess I don't FEEL like it should take 32 hours to fit front sheet metal.. So I billed him 10.. Even though I really did work at it for 32 hours--straight. Perhaps that's why I closed.
But I do work with a hustle, and did close my shop. Maybe I'll apply for work at Ironworks and Speedtech!! Well, now that I've kicked myself out the door, maybe not..