Save GM

[trapin]

Originally Posted by rich-allen

I don't think the retired workers should lose their medical coverage. Medical insurance for older Americans can run up to $1200 Mo and that would be wrong. Someone posted earlier; "the workers invested into the pension fund, it's their money and they deserve to keep it" that's simply wrong. The pension fund is part of a benefit package they receive as part of the UAW agreement. You can't elect to not invest in the pension fund, in other words, if the pension plan didn't exist you wouldn't get the $5.90 Hr the put into the pension fund added to your pay check.
The UAW controls those pensions, they use it as leverage for a whole host of stuff.

Your logic is backwards. In all the years I've worked for GM I have had pension payments deducted from my paycheck (this was when I was not in a salaried union). Those deductions have always been there so yes, I have PAID INTO IT, even when there wasn't some union contract calling the shots for me. So I am entitled to "something" when I go. Also, I am not going to get health insurance when I retire due to my hire-in date and crazy as it might seem...I agree with that. Why the hell should a company be responsible for someone's health care when that person no longer works for them? Geez if we're going to go that far what else can we do for you during your retirement? How about pay for your internet too? Your cable? Maybe we can pick up your phone tab and water bill for ya while we're at it. Gimmie a break.

Much love.

[XcYZ]

I still don't understand how Wall Street can get so much help, but when the Big 3 want a loan for a fraction of the amount, it's the most evil thing in the world. Look what AIG did after they got their billions handed to them - the executives went to some million dollar spa retreat deal...

[brans72]

guess we need to ask our goverment on that note!

[BRIAN]

The whole jet thing was just a bit out of control. I agree that they should show that reductions come at the top but how many ran at lunch time to have the free catered lunch when the US Govt is in deep financial trouble?? I saw a lot of $500 and up suits also so should they have showed up in sweats???

The problem is they did not show up with a plan. They did nothing to show how they were goin to change their business to assure a return on our investment. The mistake they made was going in there like it was a bank loan and it isn't. Heck, Ford pretty much said they really didn't even need the money and only wanted the left over $3billion to be saved for them in the future.

As important as it is to us there is the other 75% of Americans who just look at them as another business and they should be treated as such. The made a great point as to where does the handouts stop?? What Industry is next.

There is no way all three will survive if one goes down. At least 2 will go and probably the other will be bought or divided up. The suppliers can't take that large of a loss.


I think the union deal is just been beat to death. How anybody can dispute that the UAW in the past got out of control in their demands which they got because of threats to shut down production I am lost. Skilled labor should be rewarded. Unskilled labor should be treated fairly but not payed more than 1st year attorneys. If I do not like my job I leave and better myself to get a better job. I do not continue doing the same exact same thing and demand higher wages and threaten the Co.

Yes you should have extended coverages but what you are not getting is they are paying so much out to past employees it can't be extended to you. You are also being beat out of a whole bunch of stuff because of the greedy guy who came before you. You are paying for it more than me so if you are ok with it I guess you have a plan when you hit 65. I applaud your loyalty but you have to see that not entirely to blame it is part of the cause.

Once again how many took action and wrote a letter or email to back the Co's???? That is why there was no vote and they are screwed. NO VOICE NO REPRESENTATION!!! Don't blame the unions and CEO's blame yourself!!

[conekiller13]

I guess if England can survive the loss of it's auto industry so can We right? I guess this will be a great opportunity for Tata from India and Changan Automobile Group and Cherry from China to get their vehicles here. I can see them swooping in to buy up the plants and designs and then suddenly they have U.S. compliant vehicles.

I don't understand why we are unable to have a deal like the French did with Renault. If someone is going to buy out the U.S. companies why not have it be the U.S.? Nationalize the companies and restructure management, make the company work for the company and not the shareholder. Once it turns around start selling it back to itself. Use Renault as a model.

Taken from the NY Times:
"For Garel Rhys, head of the Center for Automotive Industry Research at Cardiff University in Wales, the trajectory of General Motors is reminiscent of British Leyland not only because of the former’s decision to seek aid to avert bankruptcy, but also for its slow, seemingly inexorable loss of market share. “Both had a history of being the biggest in their market but couldn’t adapt as they lost sales,” he said. “They couldn’t get customers back.”

If Washington does go ahead and help Detroit, Mr. Edwardes said, it is crucial that the government overhaul the management of the Big Three. “Throwing money at them isn’t enough,” he said. “They need money and they need new management. They need both, not one or the other.”

It is a sad day for America and the American worker...........would You like fries with that?


I can not think of another American industry that has so many rules involved in designing and building it's product. How much of a new cars design and component cost is eaten up by D.O.T. and EPA requirements before the car design actually hits paper. Add the burden of out of date UAW contracts and then making the shareholders the primary concern instead of the customer or the company and it is definitely a recipe for disaster.

Anyone remember that movie with Micheal Keaton "Gung-Ho"? Remember how the Union workers didn't want to work to the Japanese standard? Is that whats to blame for the still perceived build quality problems or is it cutting costs on materials to show a better bottom line to shareholders? I think "free" enterprise running amuck in this country shares a large part of the responsibility for our current situation.

[Damn True]

How many US airlines have gone through bankruptcy and yet are still in existence?

The reason I bring this up is this. It is my opinion that the UAW is calling the shots here. They are the reason why the big-2.5 Execs are so opposed to bankruptcy and restructuring because if that happens the contracts will also be restructured which spells disaster for the UAW.

[conekiller13]

Originally Posted by Damn True

How many US airlines have gone through bankruptcy and yet are still in existence?

The reason I bring this up is this. It is my opinion that the UAW is calling the shots here. They are the reason why the big-2.5 Execs are so opposed to bankruptcy and restructuring because if that happens the contracts will also be restructured which spells disaster for the UAW.

But disaster for the UAW will ultimately help the industry build itself back up. The union is the biggest obstacle in competing with the import companies. I would think the "Execs" would be for that scenario. I haven't heard any representative from the UAW chime in on the subject yet...........

[camcojb]

Originally Posted by XcYZ

I still don't understand how Wall Street can get so much help, but when the Big 3 want a loan for a fraction of the amount, it's the most evil thing in the world. Look what AIG did after they got their billions handed to them - the executives went to some million dollar spa retreat deal...

I think what a lot of people are afraid of is the loan will be burnt through in a few months and they will be right back where they were, except with billions of our money gone.

If I try to get a business loan I have to prove my credit worthiness and ability to pay it back. So I think GM needs to show what changes they're going to make that satisfies the lender that they have a good chance of being re-paid. I don't think they've said a single thing they're going to do differently, and if true I see that as the problem.

I hope this all works out. I have many friends that work there, most on this board. Plus I'm a big GM guy anyway, and I realize that this reaches much further than just direct GM employees losing their jobs. But I think GM should be working on a plan to right the ship financially. If they come up with a viable plan I think the loan is there. Actually I think the loan will happen even if they don't change anything just due to the financial impact it'd have, but if the goal is to survive and compete with the other companies they need a new business model. You cannot keep doing the exact same thing and expect the results to change.

Jody

[Stuart Adams]

Originally Posted by camcojb

I think what a lot of people are afraid of is the loan will be burnt through in a few months and they will be right back where they were, except with billions of our money gone.

If I try to get a business loan I have to prove my credit worthiness and ability to pay it back. So I think GM needs to show what changes they're going to make that satisfies the lender that they have a good chance of being re-paid. I don't think they've said a single thing they're going to do differently, and if true I see that as the problem.

I hope this all works out. I have many friends that work there, most on this board. Plus I'm a big GM guy anyway, plus I realize that this reaches much further than just direct GM employees losing their jobs. But I think GM should be working on a plan to right the ship financially. If they come up with a viable plan I think the loan is there. Actually I think the loan will happen even if they don't change anything just due to the financial impact it'd have, but if the goal is to survive and compete with the other companies they need a new business model. You cannot keep doing the exact same thing and expect the results to change.

Jody

What he said. They should build and sell the cars that do well and make those even better. Get rid of the dead cars and dead weight. Kinda like In- N- Out. Just burgers and fries.

[Flash68]

Originally Posted by camcojb

I think what a lot of people are afraid of is the loan will be burnt through in a few months and they will be right back where they were, except with billions of our money gone.

If I try to get a business loan I have to prove my credit worthiness and ability to pay it back. So I think GM needs to show what changes they're going to make that satisfies the lender that they have a good chance of being re-paid. I don't think they've said a single thing they're going to do differently, and if true I see that as the problem.

I hope this all works out. I have many friends that work there, most on this board. Plus I'm a big GM guy anyway, and I realize that this reaches much further than just direct GM employees losing their jobs. But I think GM should be working on a plan to right the ship financially. If they come up with a viable plan I think the loan is there. Actually I think the loan will happen even if they don't change anything just due to the financial impact it'd have, but if the goal is to survive and compete with the other companies they need a new business model. You cannot keep doing the exact same thing and expect the results to change.

Jody

Herein lies the difference. The money given to banks/financials was not just to save them, but to stimulate further lending in our economy and to help keep this flailing economy moving. Some of them are accused of not using the money to actually lend, which is a big problem. But the automakers have no plans for getting back to profitability, and they didn't help their collective and individual causes with that poor showing in front of Congress the other day. They refuse to consider bankruptcy in any form? Why not?