Older Richmond 5-Speed in My 1969 Firebird

[gearheads78]

Lots of good advice from Greg above.

Another vote of an internal rail shifter. I love my TKO600. Its not anything like driving an old car with a muncie and thats what DougNash / Richmond 5 speed would be like.

[70rs]

I want to know how often Self and Greg have conversations.......

And which one wins when you argue?

[Ron Fox]

Originally Posted by gearheads78

Lots of good advice from Greg above.

Another vote of an internal rail shifter. I love my TKO600. Its not anything like driving an old car with a muncie and thats what DougNash / Richmond 5 speed would be like.

Thanks for the TKO vote.

[GregWeld]

Ron --

Opinions are like belly buttons - everybody has one! LOL

I think you've got a good handle on it. Don't forget to write it all down - stick to it. Anyone will tell you when building a car - it's so easy to loose sight of the ball... and it's like Chess... you add one piece - you have to move or redo two... and then you're in the spiral.

STANCE is all about wheels and tire sizes --- and your suspension. It's all a "trade off" - low stance has it's own set of issues like hitting bottom over big driveway humps etc - but nothing beats the look IF you've willing to make the trade off. Ditto big wheels with rubber band tires - it's the old "pea under a mattress"... you'll feel every pot hole - and undulation in the road. But you gain looks and performance... Somewhere in between is the right combo for YOU... what do you want to trade? Stance is so important - if you want a "looker" - and let's face - who doesn't? That's why body fitment and flatness is so important... Stance - nice paint - great body - the right set of tires and wheels -- you got it going on!

Your builder should MOCK UP the stance before you ever buy a single part... You'll see this being shown/done on almost every build posted here. It's SO IMPORTANT... because you can't get there from here if you don't have an address and a map! Set up the look - take pictures - tape them on the car - or near the car - for reference. People will let you "borrow" tires... as long as they're not MOUNTED on wheels - and you don't mess them up... Well - and as long as you're not a pest...

When I'm looking for tires and wheels - I go to shows and when I see something I like - I do the digital picture thing --- take a close up of the size so you don't forget - and the car and the stance. Once you have a firm grip on what you want - show your builder and he should know how to mock it up from there.

A funny 'story' on this "posting pictures on the car"... I had a 36 Ford - real Henry - 5 window - body was done - and in primer... patch panels etc all done... I mocked up the fenders and running boards - hood - grill. Had to tack weld them on using some 1" square tubing... but you have to SEE the car.... so I've got colored quickly printed pictures all over the trunk lid - one showing the color I like - the other a set of wheels I liked - a couple more of similar cars with the stance... one with the door handles on - and another with it slicked... I pushed this car around in the shed for a year... changing the pictures with updated versions as I found them. Now I'm getting closer to having the car in my mind - but - BIG BUTT - I'm really trying to make the 36 five window into a 37 three window with a chopped top. I wanted to change the hood - the trunk - the 5 windows gone and so that was chop and section the lid etc.... FINALLY I realized I didn't want to build the 36 --- I wanted a 37 ! So -- sold the 36 and shopped 'til I found a suitable 37 --- and NOW I'm happy. Sometimes you just have to "live with it" awhile before it dawns on you what it is that you really want.

[Ron Fox]

Originally Posted by GregWeld

Ron --

Opinions are like belly buttons - everybody has one! LOL

I think you've got a good handle on it. Don't forget to write it all down - stick to it. Anyone will tell you when building a car - it's so easy to loose sight of the ball... and it's like Chess... you add one piece - you have to move or redo two... and then you're in the spiral.

STANCE is all about wheels and tire sizes --- and your suspension. It's all a "trade off" - low stance has it's own set of issues like hitting bottom over big driveway humps etc - but nothing beats the look IF you've willing to make the trade off. Ditto big wheels with rubber band tires - it's the old "pea under a mattress"... you'll feel every pot hole - and undulation in the road. But you gain looks and performance... Somewhere in between is the right combo for YOU... what do you want to trade? Stance is so important - if you want a "looker" - and let's face - who doesn't? That's why body fitment and flatness is so important... Stance - nice paint - great body - the right set of tires and wheels -- you got it going on!

Your builder should MOCK UP the stance before you ever buy a single part... You'll see this being shown/done on almost every build posted here. It's SO IMPORTANT... because you can't get there from here if you don't have an address and a map! Set up the look - take pictures - tape them on the car - or near the car - for reference. People will let you "borrow" tires... as long as they're not MOUNTED on wheels - and you don't mess them up... Well - and as long as you're not a pest...

When I'm looking for tires and wheels - I go to shows and when I see something I like - I do the digital picture thing --- take a close up of the size so you don't forget - and the car and the stance. Once you have a firm grip on what you want - show your builder and he should know how to mock it up from there.

A funny 'story' on this "posting pictures on the car"... I had a 36 Ford - real Henry - 5 window - body was done - and in primer... patch panels etc all done... I mocked up the fenders and running boards - hood - grill. Had to tack weld them on using some 1" square tubing... but you have to SEE the car.... so I've got colored quickly printed pictures all over the trunk lid - one showing the color I like - the other a set of wheels I liked - a couple more of similar cars with the stance... one with the door handles on - and another with it slicked... I pushed this car around in the shed for a year... changing the pictures with updated versions as I found them. Now I'm getting closer to having the car in my mind - but - BIG BUTT - I'm really trying to make the 36 five window into a 37 three window with a chopped top. I wanted to change the hood - the trunk - the 5 windows gone and so that was chop and section the lid etc.... FINALLY I realized I didn't want to build the 36 --- I wanted a 37 ! So -- sold the 36 and shopped 'til I found a suitable 37 --- and NOW I'm happy. Sometimes you just have to "live with it" awhile before it dawns on you what it is that you really want.

Yea, I like the killer stance with the right wheel choice. I do not like the skinny tires that a lot of people run. I want the car with a good stance but l don't want to have to worry about bottoming out wherever I go.

I have seen on this site how everyone mocks up their stance. I told my builder awhile back that I want the stance mocked up as well (and even the car mocked up after metal work and before paint to make sure all body panels fit correctly.)

I have taken many photos of cars at shows and cruise in's. The photo's give me future idea's of what I want. (wheel combo, engine bay color, body color, interior, etc) I also have many car magazines with more good idea's for my car. I have gone to shows with my builder showing him what I like which is a huge plus. At work on my computer I have downloaded several hundred car photo's to get examples also. I actually like the look and stance and even the wheels of Todd Akes '69.

Funny story about your '37.

Thanks.

[T_Raven]

It looks like you've already decided against the Richmond but I'd like to add a few things for anyone that might debate this later. And it's good general info about gear sizes.

I was looking at a 69 Firebird that had a Richmond 5 speed and 3.55 rear gears. That would make for 3500 rpms at 75 mph, definitely not acceptable. A TKO 600 with a .68 5th gear would be closer to 2500 rpms at 75, so that's much better. To turn 2500 rpm @ 75 with a 1:1 5th gear you'd need about a 2.40:1 rear gear and I don't even know where to buy anything numerically lower than 3.08, so gears would cost more and offset the savings of a Richmond 5 speed for anyone debating the two.

Richmond advertises that they made a 1:1 5 speed because it's quieter. At a 1:1 ratio you can design a trans to lock the input and output shafts rather than spinning gears to get an over drive, making less noise. I've never noticed an over drive trans to be too noisy though so that's a pointless way to do it in my eyes. To make up for no over drive they gear the whole thing lower so you can use taller rear gears and still have similar gearing overall and low cruise rpm, but like I said, where do you find 2:40:1 gears? Also having a 3.28:1 1st gear is part of what makes the Richmond weeker. To have a higher ratio the two gears need to be further apart in size making for less contact between the two, making for a weeker pair of gears. This is why the TKO 500 with it's 3.27:1 1st gear is weeker than the TKO 600 with it's 2.87:1 1st gear.

The Richmond was part of the reason I didn't buy the dude's car. I would've had to spend quite a bit to change that and a few other things and he wouldn't come down on price enough.

[Flash68]

Like Greg said, run a poll and you will get 100 answers for TKO and Tremec, but 1 or 2 at best for Richmond.

[andrewb70]

I have the Richmond 6spd in my car and its a decent trans. Many times the shifting problems that people experience are self inflicted. This can also be said about the TKO-600 that many people complain about with shifting into 3rd gear. The Richmond uses an older style synchro design that needs lube with MORE friction. I initially was running GL5 spec synthetic and the transmission shifted very poorly. I later switched to some GL4 conventional fluid and the shifting improved tremendously. The Long shifter is very precise when it is adjusted correctly.

As for the gear ratio issue, the Richmond has better ratios by far. I would run a 2.56 gear in a Pontiac with the Richmond 5spd. This will give you great highway cruising RPM and have enough gear to get you out of the hole, given the 3.28 first gear. One thing that many people don't consider is driveshaft speed. Using a trans with a 1:1 first gear and a higher rear end ratio (low number) will reduce the driveshaft speed compared to a lower rear end ratio (higher number) and an overdrive transmission. Food for thought.

Andrew

[GregWeld]

Well Flash - we have one of the two votes you predicted!!!

[Ron Fox]

Originally Posted by T_Raven

It looks like you've already decided against the Richmond but I'd like to add a few things for anyone that might debate this later. And it's good general info about gear sizes.

I was looking at a 69 Firebird that had a Richmond 5 speed and 3.55 rear gears. That would make for 3500 rpms at 75 mph, definitely not acceptable. A TKO 600 with a .68 5th gear would be closer to 2500 rpms at 75, so that's much better. To turn 2500 rpm @ 75 with a 1:1 5th gear you'd need about a 2.40:1 rear gear and I don't even know where to buy anything numerically lower than 3.08, so gears would cost more and offset the savings of a Richmond 5 speed for anyone debating the two.

Richmond advertises that they made a 1:1 5 speed because it's quieter. At a 1:1 ratio you can design a trans to lock the input and output shafts rather than spinning gears to get an over drive, making less noise. I've never noticed an over drive trans to be too noisy though so that's a pointless way to do it in my eyes. To make up for no over drive they gear the whole thing lower so you can use taller rear gears and still have similar gearing overall and low cruise rpm, but like I said, where do you find 2:40:1 gears? Also having a 3.28:1 1st gear is part of what makes the Richmond weeker. To have a higher ratio the two gears need to be further apart in size making for less contact between the two, making for a weeker pair of gears. This is why the TKO 500 with it's 3.27:1 1st gear is weeker than the TKO 600 with it's 2.87:1 1st gear.

The Richmond was part of the reason I didn't buy the dude's car. I would've had to spend quite a bit to change that and a few other things and he wouldn't come down on price enough.

Thanks T for your info. How far along are you on your '67 Bird? Did you ever use the T56? If so how do you like it?

Are you still in Iraq or are you finally home?