Older Richmond 5-Speed in My 1969 Firebird

[70rs]

I think the bottom line is that everyone with experience with the Richmond is telling you that you probably will not be happy with it. There are better choices.

I am also new to all of this. The advice I have recieved from everyone on this forum and everyone that responded to your questions has been dead on and saved me a ton of headaches. I trust these guys to give me sound advice witout bias.

I hope your build goes well for you and that you get the car of your dreams. But do your research, make a solid plan and then stick to it. Making changes part way through will cost you more time and money that you can imagine.

[Ron Fox]

Originally Posted by GregWeld

My post crossed with yours ---

I'm going to sound really negative here - and I'm not trying to be - what I'm trying to be is dead on honest and I'm trying to HELP you so read it in that light.

Statements like what you've just posted above - are the worst types of "builds" to start with. YOU don't have a real vision for what you want with the car - and that - I can tell you from experience - will lead to a car that isn't going to make you happy - and is going to cost you more money and take longer to build. Here's why I say that.

You've already "changed" what you want out of the car... a driver - that can auto X - and go for cruises because "maybe" you'd like to try that. You have a HP number in your mind - but don't have a rear end choice - and we know you don't have a tranny choice yet. My guess is you haven't even thought about tire/wheel size... and you don't mention anything about suspension... Or BUDGET. Are you on a budget? Or can you just CL it and throw whatever it takes to get 'er done?

A budget will determine what parts get suggested for a build. Big different between the parts on a $35K build - and a $150K build. Are you a competitive guy - ie - you go to a show - do you want to trophy? Or are you happy just to hang out. Ditto - let's say you enter a local Auto X -- and kind of like it (it's addicting) -- are you going to be happy finishing 12th... or are you the type that is going be planning how to improve big time? It doesn't make any difference to anyone here - what personsality you are - but it does - IF YOU'RE HONEST ABOUT IT - help us to guide you. It also helps to connect the personal type (A vs B) with the budget. A type A with limited budget - can build a great handling car on leaf springs (think POZZI'S car for an example - he/she beat everyone in the Auto X - on leaf springs!) - or a type A with a hefty wallet - can build a car with all the "stuff" that they're going to end up with anyway... so if you can afford it - might as well do it now - rather than build the car about 4 different times (Me <---------).

This is what I would like to have:

455+ CI (with mods)
4-Link set up (preferable DSE but that is another thread)
Mini Tubes
335 tires
Wheels (difficult decision-Probably Boze)-Size similiar to Todd Akes set up.
Like to have the DSE sub
Rear 12" (from DSE if I go the total package)
Upgrade the interior somewhat-seats, etc.

I want to get the car out on nice days. I want to hit the interstate and the curvy back roads and just drive. I want a nice show like car but I plan on driving it. The auto X would be fun to get into but the wheels and tires I plan on using is not correct for the course.

The budget vision of the car is $50 plus. I don't have all the necessary money up front which will cause the build to take longer. (and my builder know this)

In general I have a vision for my '69. I know what I want but it needs to be fine tuned.

Thanks.

[Ron Fox]

Originally Posted by Vegas69

I'm sure he's a perfectly good wrench and does quality work. Here's the deal. He may not be experienced in this genre. Going from a turbo 350 to a richmond is probably a nice upgrade. You get the point. When I speak, I speak from experience. It's not because of some parts I have sitting in the corner or what somebody else told me. I built my car, I drive my car, I race my car, I've worked countless bugs out of my car... This site is at the top of the heap as far as innnovation goes. Most of us are chasing the ultimate pro touring car. With that said, don't get sucked into always buying the newest and best thing out there if you have something that works. Only you know what your budget and expectations are. Do yourself a favor and sit down and think about you car, budget, and expectations and put it in writing BEFORE you start slinging money around. Frank @ Prodigy Customs is a really good resource for parts and advice.

This is the ultimate site. You guys in here are extremely good at what you do. If I only had half the experience and know how.

I try to step back when I see a new product and like you said not get sucked into buying it because even though it is new it may not be the best or cost efficient for my build. But I like to upgrade in areas like handling, etc.

I guess I should sit down and write out what I want for the car and what I want to get out of the car.

I did send Frank a privite message to chime in on my thread.

Thanks.

[Ron Fox]

Originally Posted by 70rs

I think the bottom line is that everyone with experience with the Richmond is telling you that you probably will not be happy with it. There are better choices.

I am also new to all of this. The advice I have recieved from everyone on this forum and everyone that responded to your questions has been dead on and saved me a ton of headaches. I trust these guys to give me sound advice witout bias.

I hope your build goes well for you and that you get the car of your dreams. But do your research, make a solid plan and then stick to it. Making changes part way through will cost you more time and money that you can imagine.

Yea, the guys in here know their stuff. I have been behind the scenes for a while reading everyone's problems and solutions. The advice in here is priceless.

I plan on talking to my builder this weekend.

Thanks.

[Ron Fox]

I had emailed Richmondgear.com several days ago asking about their Richmond 5-Speed. I just got a return email. Thought I would post it anyway. His response:

"If this is a Richmond 5-speed, it would be the same as we manufacture today. The Street 5-speed is a 1.00 to 1 direct drive trans. Not an od. With proper rear gear ratio it can act like an od just from the stand point of reduced rpms. 2.73-3.08 rear gears would allow the trans act as an od."

[Mkelcy]

Originally Posted by Ron Fox

This is what I would like to have:

455+ CI (with mods)
4-Link set up (preferable DSE but that is another thread)
Mini Tubes
335 tires
Wheels (difficult decision-Probably Boze)-Size similiar to Todd Akes set up.
Like to have the DSE sub
Rear 12" (from DSE if I go the total package)
Upgrade the interior somewhat-seats, etc.

I want to get the car out on nice days. I want to hit the interstate and the curvy back roads and just drive. I want a nice show like car but I plan on driving it. The auto X would be fun to get into but the wheels and tires I plan on using is not correct for the course.

The budget vision of the car is $50 plus. I don't have all the necessary money up front which will cause the build to take longer. (and my builder know this)

In general I have a vision for my '69. I know what I want but it needs to be fine tuned.

Thanks.

455+ CI (with mods) - figure $6K - $8K or so for a good reliable build (with carb, not EFI) at the power levels you're talking about
4-Link set up (preferable DSE but that is another thread) - Figure $6.5K plus labor
Mini Tubs - Probably $2K (including third party labor)
335 tires & Wheels - Anywhere from $3K to $5K
Like to have the DSE sub - Another $7K or so
Upgrade the interior somewhat-seats, etc. - Like Recaros? Figure another $2.5K

So I make it about $29K before body work, paint, powder coating, interior, sound and heat insulation, gauges, HVAC, radio, electrical, engine accessories, headers and exhaust, clutch, fuel system, brakes, engine cooling, transmission, subframe connectors, and all of the other small bits (weather stripping, trim, emblems, etc.).

Your $50K budget is toast already.

To give you some idea, I'm building a '68 Camaro with aftermarket subframe and rear suspension, nice (but not custom) interior, really good seats, BUDGET paint, budget wheels, a GMPP 376/480 engine and so on, and I'll have about $80K - $90K in the car, not including the cost of the car. I've done all the work to the car except media blasting, rust repair and paint and body, so there's very little labor in that number. I have all of the major components sitting here already and I'm in the process of doing final assembly, yet I still find myself ordering $500 worth of stuff from here and $500 worth of stuff from there.

A counter example. I have my "driver" '68 Camaro with stock subframe, stock control arms, Guldstrand mod, SBC, T56, leaf springs, 10 bolt rear and C5 Corvette wheels on adapters. I track the car, take it on multi-thousand mile summer trips, play in the local mountains, etc. It would cost less than a third of what the '68 I'm building will cost to duplicate the "driver" but it's still a fun car that gets lots of comments.

This is a very expensive hobby, and can get totally out of control if you're not careful. So I urge you, as everyone else already has, to sit down and figure out what you want to do, and what it will cost; then double it and that'll be a decent estimate of what it will cost. When that number stuns you, start paring your project and figuring out what's really important and what's not. You may find that a modest build will do everything you want, including being affordable and a project you can actually complete.

[ProdigyCustoms]

I would not mess with the Richmond. I would do TKO600, T56 Magnum, We will have the New Mcloeds in early spring. But no Richmond.

If $50k is our number, we are going to need to trim a few things. A little project planning would go a long way for you.

Let me know if I can be of any help

[GregWeld]

Well.... I'm glad you guys jumped in here on this "budget vs wish list" -- 'cause when I saw it - I said to myself.... "Self!... and Self says to me... Greg!... the list of mods and the list of money don't match...

Ron --- I'm being "funny" here - but it's not funny of course. Cars are like remodeling a house... you make a wish list ... get some "bids" -- then tear into the job. The wife then says -- Well... as long as we're here we might as well do X and X... to which you agree - and then you add - well if we're going to do X and X then I want to do Y and Z... and then the builders budget has change order charges - and you start with the cost overruns. It's why people hate remodel jobs. Personally, I absolutely LOVE remodeling houses - because I don't care what it costs and normally don't even ask for a bid - I just say "this is what I want - is this good or can we do it better"? "What else should we do to make it killer?"

Many of the cars on here - are of the later... in other words - they're exercises in "how do I want it done? Period". "Is it done yet?" LOL

I agree with Frank and Mc - that said - you'll have to do some serious soul searching and figure out what you're going to be willing to sacrifice to the budget god. You can build your car with your budget... but not with the list you tossed out there. If it was me... I'd skip the:

DSE clip and go with Tubular control arms New springs and good shocks
add a sway bar

If the car was a big block - you already have a good rear end? If not - go with a 12 bolt - new leaf springs - good shocks - urethane bushings etc and maybe add some cal tracs

If you have a bb pontiac - just give it a good top quality rebuild - a decent cam -- and maybe for driveability - toss on the FAST EZ EFI - some headers - nice 2 1/2" exhaust.

If you don't have the bb - then just splurge and order a MILDLY built 500 or LESS BB Pontiac - and use the difference for the FAST EZ EFI and headers and Vintage Air or similar serpentine belt set up.

ADD if it doesn't have it already - A/C -- all modern builds should have A/C... it makes the wife want to go - it makes your life nicer - and it increases the value of the car and build. It's easy to add now - and a bitch to add later.

Do a Tremec overdrive transmission - don't cut this corner.

Do disc brakes all the way around. They don't have to be mondo size - and they don't have to be Brembo etc - there are lots of great retro kits out there that will get this car stopped in plenty of time and far better than it did when new.

Do a nice single stage paint job - spend more money on PREP than on paint... the most expensive paint on a poorly prepped body is a total waste! A well prepped laser straight body - with a decent paint job on it is killer - pay more attention to the details of body fitment - door gaps - trunk gaps etc... that is what makes a "quality" car.

DO THE DSE mini tubs... skip this part now - and forever be sorry. With the mini tubs installed - you can run a nice fat tire - and nice looking wheel with modern sizing. To me - this is like the difference between sinks and carpet - you can replace the carpet relatively simply - so no point in spending huge money on it - it gets dirty and dated and is cheap and easy to replace... but how many people do you know rip out their sinks and faucets? So put the money into the stuff you don't "replace"... a hardwood floor is NOT a replacement item - paint on the walls is.

Do the "STRUCTURE" - mini tubs - Engine - Transmission - Rear end - paint and body work. You don't go back to redo these items. Suspension - is a "weekend" project - Brakes are weekend projects - Interiors can be "modified" as money is available... so my advice is - think about what can't be "undone" and redone... if you have to have items hit the cutting room floor. Infrastructure is (to me) - motor/headers - cooling system - steering components (ie - power or rack vs stock etc)... tubs - body - fit and finish - transmission - rear end "housing and axles and gears".

Weekend projects are intake manifolds - carbs - plug wires - valve covers - any and all "dress up" items... not the INTERNALS. Get the suspension "right" - you can upgrade the brakes from a CPP kit to Wilwoods or something like that LATER... Do the dash and it's wiring etc NOW - this is a mess trying to go back and hack it later... Do the Dynamat NOW - you can add electric windows later...

Just "talking here" -- think of it like we were hanging in the garage and blabbing about what you want to do with YOUR car...

[gearheads78]

Lots of good advice from Greg above.

Another vote of an internal rail shifter. I love my TKO600. Its not anything like driving an old car with a muncie and thats what DougNash / Richmond 5 speed would be like.

[70rs]

I want to know how often Self and Greg have conversations.......

And which one wins when you argue?