Older Richmond 5-Speed in My 1969 Firebird

[GregWeld]

Originally Posted by awr68

FWIW, Larry, the owner of PT.com has a Richmond in his car and says it's getting swapped out SOON!

I have driven cars with T56's and liked them a lot! I have a T56 for my car and got it for $1100 and it's a fresh rebuild out of a '97 Camaro.

There ya go....in my mind, I have a far better trans for less money and wouldn't even consider buying the Richmond.

Remember, just because you hired a builder doesn't mean they get to choose the parts....this is your car/build and you make all final decisions...otherwise this isn't going to end well! Job one is to know what you are building and understand it....you are talking a lot of money here, especially when you are paying for labor! Don't get in a hurry...you have time to learn....we all had too!!

Tony --

This is why I said to him earlier -- I wouldn't trust whoever is building the car for him. He's giving him total BS guidance if this is what he's telling him. Or the guy (builder) is clueless. Nobody would build a modern build from the ground up - and put a Richmond 5 speed (non OD) behind a big block built Pontiac. It would be different (MAYBE) if he planned to race it or something like that - where there was a clear reason why you'd do that... but in this case - no such plan has been offered.

RON -- When you say your builder is experienced... what does that mean? Is he a bodyman? A general service shop? A restoration expert? What? What else is he telling you to do with your car?? Spill it all out here and let us try to see what's going on. Do you have pictures you can post? Of the shop? Of the car? Of "before and after"?

[Ron Fox]

Originally Posted by camcojb

every transmission has a drop off between gears; that's what makes the car go faster as you upshift. If the gears did not change the car would not accelerate.

The TKO is like a 4 speed with an overdrive gear to lower rpms for fifth gear. The Richmond 5 speed would have less drop between gears as it has five gears from start to 1:1 ratio gear whereas a TKO and T56 have 4............. however, the Richmond doesn't have the overdrive which is a big deal to anyone who goes on the freeway or takes long trips. The overdrive fifth gear will lower engine rpms, less wear and tear, less engine noise when cruising, engine will last longer, and better fuel economy as it isn't spinning as fast.

Great lesson.

[Ron Fox]

Originally Posted by Mkelcy

With respect, I'm a little worried about what you're embarking on.

You needn't be an automotive engineer to own one of these old, retro-modded muscle cars, but a fair amount of familiarity with cars, how they work, basic trouble shooting techniques (is the noise associated with engine speed or car speed) and the like is awfully helpful, otherwise you are at the mercy of your local mechanic, who may or may not even be willing to work on an older, modified car.

I'm not trying to discourage you, but rather to urge you to do a lot of reading, starting with the basics of how engines, transmissions, rear ends, etc. all work, and moving up from there. You also need to know every part that's on your car - i.e., the front brakes came from a 2002 Corvette; the transmission is out of a 2000 Camaro - just to be able to get parts and to get it worked on.

I am trying to soak in all the knowledge I can about my car and cars in general. I know I can't learn everything over night.

[Ron Fox]

Originally Posted by awr68

FWIW, Larry, the owner of PT.com has a Richmond in his car and says it's getting swapped out SOON!

I have driven cars with T56's and liked them a lot! I have a T56 for my car and got it for $1100 and it's a fresh rebuild out of a '97 Camaro.

There ya go....in my mind, I have a far better trans for less money and wouldn't even consider buying the Richmond.

Remember, just because you hired a builder doesn't mean they get to choose the parts....this is your car/build and you make all final decisions...otherwise this isn't going to end well! Job one is to know what you are building and understand it....you are talking a lot of money here, especially when you are paying for labor! Don't get in a hurry...you have time to learn....we all had too!!

My car is totally disassembled. It has been media blasted and is in apoxy waiting on metal work to start. He actually has not started on my car at all. I try and go to the shop once a week to look at the progress on the other cars in the shop. When I hang out with him I tend to ask questions about the other builds in the shop. Why did he do this, what's he going to do with this, etc. He explains things to a T. There has been several nights I left the shop with the sun coming up. When I am in the shop we usually talk about the plans for my car. And with each part of the plan I usually ask why do it that way and what are the other choices out there. My builder never pushes anything on me. He gives me options on everyting. I ask alot of questions about my car and I sometimes tend to go overboard.

Thanks.

[Ron Fox]

Originally Posted by Vegas69

Come up with a plan that will make the car as reliable as possible. Putting an old richmond behind a big block pontiac probably isn't a wise choice. When I put my foot on the floor I want to feel confident that I'm not going to scatter a tranny, rear end, drivshaft, etc. So.....
What is your intended purpose for the car?
How much power do you plan to generate?
What rear gear ratio will you be running?
What highway speeds do you frequent?

I would plan on a blow proof bellhousing and a tko 600 or t56 magnum for the power you should generate out of a 455 Pontiac. Otherwise, you will eventually be on the side of the road scratching your head and wishing you put a tranny behind it that was meant to hold up to the torture. If you are a car show guy that putts around, then you can get away with almost anything.

The intended use is for the street. But listening to you guys on here talk about the autocross at places like the Good Guys shows makes me want to try it out.

Hp- 550-650??

Rear not sure.

Highway- I would like to hit the highway a cruise to different gatherings and events and weekend cruise in's, etc.

I want to drive my car and have fun with it on dry, nice days. I have had the car for 28+ years and it has been down for oh I don't know maybe 15 years so I want to drive it again.

Thanks.

[GregWeld]

If he's not 'pushing' stuff on you - and if he's steering you to make the right choices... Then why the heck is he trying to sell you a Richmond 5 speed?

Those two statements don't mesh. I'm not trying to argue with you here - what I'm trying to do is to "enlighten" you just a little bit... or at the very least to start to question who's judgement you're going to follow.

If you hang here long enough - and really read the build threads... you'll find there are people here that have built some pretty serious stuff.. some of us have been building these cars for years and years (about 40 for me personally)... and there is a collective "experience" here that you are (and should continue to) seeking advice from. Advice, however, is different from a total education about every nuance of a build... It seems to me that you don't really have a plan for you build yet. That is a dangerous way to start out. You don't plan these builds as you go. You set a plan - parts selection - looks - feel - paint etc out all in advance. Pro touring cars are a matched set of parts - not a collection of what you can get cheap - or used - or someone has laying around (that is how you build a Rat Rod).

I asked you earlier in this thread - what are your plans for the car - and what are the major parts you plan to use. Engine? Rear end and suspension. Front end suspension. Tire sizes - Wheel sizes. Gearing. etc. How do you plan to use the car? Weekend cruising or Auto X'n or Drag racing or all or what? Because this knowledge makes a HUGE difference on what advice someone would give you. If you don't plan to make huge power and only want to drive to car shows within 50 miles of your house and sit in a parking lot all day and then drive home - you could stick in a 4 speed and probably be happy. If you want drive up the California coast and be able to handle the twisties - then an overdrive transmission is a better choice. If you plan to actually be able to use some of the HP that you've tossed out - then you need a rear end and tires that will allow that. You put a 550 hp Pontiac in there and try to run that into a 10 bolt - and want to be able to light the tires up whenever you want to - you'll be FORD in no time flat. So give us a build sheet...

[GregWeld]

Originally Posted by Ron Fox

The intended use is for the street. But listening to you guys on here talk about the autocross at places like the Good Guys shows makes me want to try it out.

Hp- 550-650??

Rear not sure.

Highway- I would like to hit the highway a cruise to different gatherings and events and weekend cruise in's, etc.

I want to drive my car and have fun with it on dry, nice days. I have had the car for 28+ years and it has been down for oh I don't know maybe 15 years so I want to drive it again.

Thanks.

My post crossed with yours ---

I'm going to sound really negative here - and I'm not trying to be - what I'm trying to be is dead on honest and I'm trying to HELP you so read it in that light.

Statements like what you've just posted above - are the worst types of "builds" to start with. YOU don't have a real vision for what you want with the car - and that - I can tell you from experience - will lead to a car that isn't going to make you happy - and is going to cost you more money and take longer to build. Here's why I say that.

You've already "changed" what you want out of the car... a driver - that can auto X - and go for cruises because "maybe" you'd like to try that. You have a HP number in your mind - but don't have a rear end choice - and we know you don't have a tranny choice yet. My guess is you haven't even thought about tire/wheel size... and you don't mention anything about suspension... Or BUDGET. Are you on a budget? Or can you just CL it and throw whatever it takes to get 'er done?

A budget will determine what parts get suggested for a build. Big different between the parts on a $35K build - and a $150K build. Are you a competitive guy - ie - you go to a show - do you want to trophy? Or are you happy just to hang out. Ditto - let's say you enter a local Auto X -- and kind of like it (it's addicting) -- are you going to be happy finishing 12th... or are you the type that is going be planning how to improve big time? It doesn't make any difference to anyone here - what personsality you are - but it does - IF YOU'RE HONEST ABOUT IT - help us to guide you. It also helps to connect the personal type (A vs B) with the budget. A type A with limited budget - can build a great handling car on leaf springs (think POZZI'S car for an example - he/she beat everyone in the Auto X - on leaf springs!) - or a type A with a hefty wallet - can build a car with all the "stuff" that they're going to end up with anyway... so if you can afford it - might as well do it now - rather than build the car about 4 different times (Me <---------).

[Ron Fox]

Originally Posted by GregWeld

Tony --

This is why I said to him earlier -- I wouldn't trust whoever is building the car for him. He's giving him total BS guidance if this is what he's telling him. Or the guy (builder) is clueless. Nobody would build a modern build from the ground up - and put a Richmond 5 speed (non OD) behind a big block built Pontiac. It would be different (MAYBE) if he planned to race it or something like that - where there was a clear reason why you'd do that... but in this case - no such plan has been offered.

RON -- When you say your builder is experienced... what does that mean? Is he a bodyman? A general service shop? A restoration expert? What? What else is he telling you to do with your car?? Spill it all out here and let us try to see what's going on. Do you have pictures you can post? Of the shop? Of the car? Of "before and after"?

It took me almost 2 years to find the builder I am using. At car shows and gatherings I would ask everyone for information about builders and restorers. When I found my builder, Mike, I talked to him for several months about his experience, his knowledge about cars, his past builds, plans for my car, etc. before he came and picked up my '69. I am a very picky person and I have owned my '69 Firebird for 28+ years and the car is like family to me (odd to say). I got 10 references and talked to a few car owners. 2 guys are even return customers with more than one car.

Mike works out of his large and very nice and clean shop at his house. At the monent he is the lone worker in the shop but has a brother and nephew who help him out from time to time. The shop has its different areas...tear down area, body work area, paint booth, and finishing area. Mike does it all from start to finish. But in the beginning to told Mike that I may part out certain parts of the car like the motor, rear end, etc.

Eventhough I am not a gear head I have helped out by tearing down certain parts of the car, cleaning and media blasting small parts and doing what I can to learn and to save (hourly) money. I have spent many hours in the shop and have learned by this process more about my car.

I have many photos of my car. Not sure if I have too many of the shop. I am at work so I will try and post them soon.

But in general I have faith in my builder. Even though my build has not started we talk back and forth about idea's for my car which are not always set in stone. And of course I will have the final say so before certain work begins and which direction I go. And I will always come on this site to get idea's and opinions from all you guys.

Thanks.

[GregWeld]

Sounds good....

[Vegas69]

I'm sure he's a perfectly good wrench and does quality work. Here's the deal. He may not be experienced in this genre. Going from a turbo 350 to a richmond is probably a nice upgrade. You get the point. When I speak, I speak from experience. It's not because of some parts I have sitting in the corner or what somebody else told me. I built my car, I drive my car, I race my car, I've worked countless bugs out of my car... This site is at the top of the heap as far as innnovation goes. Most of us are chasing the ultimate pro touring car. With that said, don't get sucked into always buying the newest and best thing out there if you have something that works. Only you know what your budget and expectations are. Do yourself a favor and sit down and think about you car, budget, and expectations and put it in writing BEFORE you start slinging money around. Frank @ Prodigy Customs is a really good resource for parts and advice.