Older Richmond 5-Speed in My 1969 Firebird

[Ron Fox]

Originally Posted by camcojb

The TKO and T56 are stronger, smoother shifting, and both give you an overdrive gear (T56 has two). Really no comparison. When Doug Nash (now Richmond) came out with the 5 speed it's main benefit was less rpm drop between gears, and with the lower first gear ratio you could run a taller rear gear and lower your cruising rpms as compared to the factory Muncies.

But they just don't shift all that well, and since they do not have overdrive the TKO's and T56's are a much better alternative.

Jody

Is there an rpm drop with the TKO?

[camcojb]

Originally Posted by Ron Fox

Is there an rpm drop with the TKO?

as compared to what? Compared to a Richmond 5 speed, yes, the TKO has an overdrive gear for fifth instead of the Richmonds 1:1 fifth gear. If you're cruising down the freeway at 70 mph with the Richmond and you're turning say 2800 rpms, you'll be between 1800-1900 rpms at the same speed with the TKO, depending on whether you run the TKO500 or the 600 (one is .64 overdrive fifth and the other is .68).

Jody

[Flash68]

Originally Posted by Ron Fox

At the moment my car is still waiting for metal work to be completed. The engine has not yet but the plan is for a 455 or slighty larger ci.

Richmond does make a true overdrive called the Super Street Overdrive.

I guess my MAIN CONCERN is taking off in 1st gear with high hp. I do not want the car to bog down when taking off. Please educate me on this but do all High hp cars bog down? I am just in the dark when it comes to transmissions, etc.

Do you like your TKO? Is your car a high hp car and if so does it tend to bog down taking off or difficult driving in traffic?

Thanks for your help.

As was already stated... a big cube torquey engine will have no problems taking off, but it will be a bear with a short 1st gear.

All high hp cars do not bog down. There is no generalization. This is why we are asking about your motor specs as that will tell what driving characteristics it will have. 2 motors with the same hp number can operate and drive night and day differently. EFI vs carb has something to do with low speed drivability too.

I like my TKO so far (only 250 miles) but I wish I woulda got a T56 for the taller first gear. I have an EFI procharged small block with a fairly big cam, but taking off is not a problem.

The only way I could see you using this Richmond trans is if it was free or $100. It is way overpriced I think, and there is a good reason everyone is running either a TKO or T56.

This is one of those times it's okay to follow the masses.

[Ron Fox]

Originally Posted by Mkelcy

You've gotten three responses from people who have driven both transmissions. All three thought the Tremec shifted much nicer than the Richmond. You've had the gearing explained and an example of the resulting rpm range given.

Here's where (I think) it gets to be you who needs to do some of the work if you really want an explanation of "all the benefits of the TKO's, etc." A simple search will get you lots of indformation.

That said, I'm surprised you still need further explanation given the the Richmond is 0 for 3 based on personal experience.

Like I said earlier I am not a gear head and talking about the good and bad about a part or item in depth gives me better understanding and teaches me about cars in general. And I admit I do sometimes ask the same questions but it's just to learn more.

I appreciate all the help but with more opinions comes more knowledge for me.

And yes the TKO sounds like the way to go.

[Ron Fox]

Originally Posted by camcojb

as compared to what? Compared to a Richmond 5 speed, yes, the TKO has an overdrive gear for fifth instead of the Richmonds 1:1 fifth gear. If you're cruising down the freeway at 70 mph with the Richmond and you're turning say 2800 rpms, you'll be between 1800-1900 rpms at the same speed with the TKO, depending on whether you run the TKO500 or the 600 (one is .64 overdrive fifth and the other is .68).

Jody

You mentioned when Doug Nash (now Richmond) came out with the 5 speed it's main benefit was less rpm drop between gears...so does the TKO have a drop off between gears?

[Ron Fox]

Originally Posted by Flash68

As was already stated... a big cube torquey engine will have no problems taking off, but it will be a bear with a short 1st gear.

All high hp cars do not bog down. There is no generalization. This is why we are asking about your motor specs as that will tell what driving characteristics it will have. 2 motors with the same hp number can operate and drive night and day differently. EFI vs carb has something to do with low speed drivability too.

I like my TKO so far (only 250 miles) but I wish I woulda got a T56 for the taller first gear. I have an EFI procharged small block with a fairly big cam, but taking off is not a problem.

The only way I could see you using this Richmond trans is if it was free or $100. It is way overpriced I think, and there is a good reason everyone is running either a TKO or T56.

This is one of those times it's okay to follow the masses.

Now I see. So when building my motor I need to be specific (with the builder) on what type of motor I want.

The T56 taller first gear means....you can hold it longer?

Thanks.

[camcojb]

Originally Posted by Ron Fox

You mentioned when Doug Nash (now Richmond) came out with the 5 speed it's main benefit was less rpm drop between gears...so does the TKO have a drop off between gears?

every transmission has a drop off between gears; that's what makes the car go faster as you upshift. If the gears did not change the car would not accelerate.

The TKO is like a 4 speed with an overdrive gear to lower rpms for fifth gear. The Richmond 5 speed would have less drop between gears as it has five gears from start to 1:1 ratio gear whereas a TKO and T56 have 4............. however, the Richmond doesn't have the overdrive which is a big deal to anyone who goes on the freeway or takes long trips. The overdrive fifth gear will lower engine rpms, less wear and tear, less engine noise when cruising, engine will last longer, and better fuel economy as it isn't spinning as fast.

[Mkelcy]

With respect, I'm a little worried about what you're embarking on.

You needn't be an automotive engineer to own one of these old, retro-modded muscle cars, but a fair amount of familiarity with cars, how they work, basic trouble shooting techniques (is the noise associated with engine speed or car speed) and the like is awfully helpful, otherwise you are at the mercy of your local mechanic, who may or may not even be willing to work on an older, modified car.

I'm not trying to discourage you, but rather to urge you to do a lot of reading, starting with the basics of how engines, transmissions, rear ends, etc. all work, and moving up from there. You also need to know every part that's on your car - i.e., the front brakes came from a 2002 Corvette; the transmission is out of a 2000 Camaro - just to be able to get parts and to get it worked on.

[awr68]

FWIW, Larry, the owner of PT.com has a Richmond in his car and says it's getting swapped out SOON!

I have driven cars with T56's and liked them a lot! I have a T56 for my car and got it for $1100 and it's a fresh rebuild out of a '97 Camaro.

There ya go....in my mind, I have a far better trans for less money and wouldn't even consider buying the Richmond.

Remember, just because you hired a builder doesn't mean they get to choose the parts....this is your car/build and you make all final decisions...otherwise this isn't going to end well! Job one is to know what you are building and understand it....you are talking a lot of money here, especially when you are paying for labor! Don't get in a hurry...you have time to learn....we all had too!!

[Vegas69]

Come up with a plan that will make the car as reliable as possible. Putting an old richmond behind a big block pontiac probably isn't a wise choice. When I put my foot on the floor I want to feel confident that I'm not going to scatter a tranny, rear end, drivshaft, etc. So.....
What is your intended purpose for the car?
How much power do you plan to generate?
What rear gear ratio will you be running?
What highway speeds do you frequent?

I would plan on a blow proof bellhousing and a tko 600 or t56 magnum for the power you should generate out of a 455 Pontiac. Otherwise, you will eventually be on the side of the road scratching your head and wishing you put a tranny behind it that was meant to hold up to the torture. If you are a car show guy that putts around, then you can get away with almost anything.