Older Richmond 5-Speed in My 1969 Firebird

[Ron Fox]

Originally Posted by Vegas69

Come up with a plan that will make the car as reliable as possible. Putting an old richmond behind a big block pontiac probably isn't a wise choice. When I put my foot on the floor I want to feel confident that I'm not going to scatter a tranny, rear end, drivshaft, etc. So.....
What is your intended purpose for the car?
How much power do you plan to generate?
What rear gear ratio will you be running?
What highway speeds do you frequent?

I would plan on a blow proof bellhousing and a tko 600 or t56 magnum for the power you should generate out of a 455 Pontiac. Otherwise, you will eventually be on the side of the road scratching your head and wishing you put a tranny behind it that was meant to hold up to the torture. If you are a car show guy that putts around, then you can get away with almost anything.

The intended use is for the street. But listening to you guys on here talk about the autocross at places like the Good Guys shows makes me want to try it out.

Hp- 550-650??

Rear not sure.

Highway- I would like to hit the highway a cruise to different gatherings and events and weekend cruise in's, etc.

I want to drive my car and have fun with it on dry, nice days. I have had the car for 28+ years and it has been down for oh I don't know maybe 15 years so I want to drive it again.

Thanks.

[GregWeld]

Originally Posted by Ron Fox

The intended use is for the street. But listening to you guys on here talk about the autocross at places like the Good Guys shows makes me want to try it out.

Hp- 550-650??

Rear not sure.

Highway- I would like to hit the highway a cruise to different gatherings and events and weekend cruise in's, etc.

I want to drive my car and have fun with it on dry, nice days. I have had the car for 28+ years and it has been down for oh I don't know maybe 15 years so I want to drive it again.

Thanks.

My post crossed with yours ---

I'm going to sound really negative here - and I'm not trying to be - what I'm trying to be is dead on honest and I'm trying to HELP you so read it in that light.

Statements like what you've just posted above - are the worst types of "builds" to start with. YOU don't have a real vision for what you want with the car - and that - I can tell you from experience - will lead to a car that isn't going to make you happy - and is going to cost you more money and take longer to build. Here's why I say that.

You've already "changed" what you want out of the car... a driver - that can auto X - and go for cruises because "maybe" you'd like to try that. You have a HP number in your mind - but don't have a rear end choice - and we know you don't have a tranny choice yet. My guess is you haven't even thought about tire/wheel size... and you don't mention anything about suspension... Or BUDGET. Are you on a budget? Or can you just CL it and throw whatever it takes to get 'er done?

A budget will determine what parts get suggested for a build. Big different between the parts on a $35K build - and a $150K build. Are you a competitive guy - ie - you go to a show - do you want to trophy? Or are you happy just to hang out. Ditto - let's say you enter a local Auto X -- and kind of like it (it's addicting) -- are you going to be happy finishing 12th... or are you the type that is going be planning how to improve big time? It doesn't make any difference to anyone here - what personsality you are - but it does - IF YOU'RE HONEST ABOUT IT - help us to guide you. It also helps to connect the personal type (A vs B) with the budget. A type A with limited budget - can build a great handling car on leaf springs (think POZZI'S car for an example - he/she beat everyone in the Auto X - on leaf springs!) - or a type A with a hefty wallet - can build a car with all the "stuff" that they're going to end up with anyway... so if you can afford it - might as well do it now - rather than build the car about 4 different times (Me <---------).

[Ron Fox]

Originally Posted by GregWeld

My post crossed with yours ---

I'm going to sound really negative here - and I'm not trying to be - what I'm trying to be is dead on honest and I'm trying to HELP you so read it in that light.

Statements like what you've just posted above - are the worst types of "builds" to start with. YOU don't have a real vision for what you want with the car - and that - I can tell you from experience - will lead to a car that isn't going to make you happy - and is going to cost you more money and take longer to build. Here's why I say that.

You've already "changed" what you want out of the car... a driver - that can auto X - and go for cruises because "maybe" you'd like to try that. You have a HP number in your mind - but don't have a rear end choice - and we know you don't have a tranny choice yet. My guess is you haven't even thought about tire/wheel size... and you don't mention anything about suspension... Or BUDGET. Are you on a budget? Or can you just CL it and throw whatever it takes to get 'er done?

A budget will determine what parts get suggested for a build. Big different between the parts on a $35K build - and a $150K build. Are you a competitive guy - ie - you go to a show - do you want to trophy? Or are you happy just to hang out. Ditto - let's say you enter a local Auto X -- and kind of like it (it's addicting) -- are you going to be happy finishing 12th... or are you the type that is going be planning how to improve big time? It doesn't make any difference to anyone here - what personsality you are - but it does - IF YOU'RE HONEST ABOUT IT - help us to guide you. It also helps to connect the personal type (A vs B) with the budget. A type A with limited budget - can build a great handling car on leaf springs (think POZZI'S car for an example - he/she beat everyone in the Auto X - on leaf springs!) - or a type A with a hefty wallet - can build a car with all the "stuff" that they're going to end up with anyway... so if you can afford it - might as well do it now - rather than build the car about 4 different times (Me <---------).

This is what I would like to have:

455+ CI (with mods)
4-Link set up (preferable DSE but that is another thread)
Mini Tubes
335 tires
Wheels (difficult decision-Probably Boze)-Size similiar to Todd Akes set up.
Like to have the DSE sub
Rear 12" (from DSE if I go the total package)
Upgrade the interior somewhat-seats, etc.

I want to get the car out on nice days. I want to hit the interstate and the curvy back roads and just drive. I want a nice show like car but I plan on driving it. The auto X would be fun to get into but the wheels and tires I plan on using is not correct for the course.

The budget vision of the car is $50 plus. I don't have all the necessary money up front which will cause the build to take longer. (and my builder know this)

In general I have a vision for my '69. I know what I want but it needs to be fine tuned.

Thanks.

[Mkelcy]

Originally Posted by Ron Fox

This is what I would like to have:

455+ CI (with mods)
4-Link set up (preferable DSE but that is another thread)
Mini Tubes
335 tires
Wheels (difficult decision-Probably Boze)-Size similiar to Todd Akes set up.
Like to have the DSE sub
Rear 12" (from DSE if I go the total package)
Upgrade the interior somewhat-seats, etc.

I want to get the car out on nice days. I want to hit the interstate and the curvy back roads and just drive. I want a nice show like car but I plan on driving it. The auto X would be fun to get into but the wheels and tires I plan on using is not correct for the course.

The budget vision of the car is $50 plus. I don't have all the necessary money up front which will cause the build to take longer. (and my builder know this)

In general I have a vision for my '69. I know what I want but it needs to be fine tuned.

Thanks.

455+ CI (with mods) - figure $6K - $8K or so for a good reliable build (with carb, not EFI) at the power levels you're talking about
4-Link set up (preferable DSE but that is another thread) - Figure $6.5K plus labor
Mini Tubs - Probably $2K (including third party labor)
335 tires & Wheels - Anywhere from $3K to $5K
Like to have the DSE sub - Another $7K or so
Upgrade the interior somewhat-seats, etc. - Like Recaros? Figure another $2.5K

So I make it about $29K before body work, paint, powder coating, interior, sound and heat insulation, gauges, HVAC, radio, electrical, engine accessories, headers and exhaust, clutch, fuel system, brakes, engine cooling, transmission, subframe connectors, and all of the other small bits (weather stripping, trim, emblems, etc.).

Your $50K budget is toast already.

To give you some idea, I'm building a '68 Camaro with aftermarket subframe and rear suspension, nice (but not custom) interior, really good seats, BUDGET paint, budget wheels, a GMPP 376/480 engine and so on, and I'll have about $80K - $90K in the car, not including the cost of the car. I've done all the work to the car except media blasting, rust repair and paint and body, so there's very little labor in that number. I have all of the major components sitting here already and I'm in the process of doing final assembly, yet I still find myself ordering $500 worth of stuff from here and $500 worth of stuff from there.

A counter example. I have my "driver" '68 Camaro with stock subframe, stock control arms, Guldstrand mod, SBC, T56, leaf springs, 10 bolt rear and C5 Corvette wheels on adapters. I track the car, take it on multi-thousand mile summer trips, play in the local mountains, etc. It would cost less than a third of what the '68 I'm building will cost to duplicate the "driver" but it's still a fun car that gets lots of comments.

This is a very expensive hobby, and can get totally out of control if you're not careful. So I urge you, as everyone else already has, to sit down and figure out what you want to do, and what it will cost; then double it and that'll be a decent estimate of what it will cost. When that number stuns you, start paring your project and figuring out what's really important and what's not. You may find that a modest build will do everything you want, including being affordable and a project you can actually complete.

[ProdigyCustoms]

I would not mess with the Richmond. I would do TKO600, T56 Magnum, We will have the New Mcloeds in early spring. But no Richmond.

If $50k is our number, we are going to need to trim a few things. A little project planning would go a long way for you.

Let me know if I can be of any help

[GregWeld]

Well.... I'm glad you guys jumped in here on this "budget vs wish list" -- 'cause when I saw it - I said to myself.... "Self!... and Self says to me... Greg!... the list of mods and the list of money don't match...

Ron --- I'm being "funny" here - but it's not funny of course. Cars are like remodeling a house... you make a wish list ... get some "bids" -- then tear into the job. The wife then says -- Well... as long as we're here we might as well do X and X... to which you agree - and then you add - well if we're going to do X and X then I want to do Y and Z... and then the builders budget has change order charges - and you start with the cost overruns. It's why people hate remodel jobs. Personally, I absolutely LOVE remodeling houses - because I don't care what it costs and normally don't even ask for a bid - I just say "this is what I want - is this good or can we do it better"? "What else should we do to make it killer?"

Many of the cars on here - are of the later... in other words - they're exercises in "how do I want it done? Period". "Is it done yet?" LOL

I agree with Frank and Mc - that said - you'll have to do some serious soul searching and figure out what you're going to be willing to sacrifice to the budget god. You can build your car with your budget... but not with the list you tossed out there. If it was me... I'd skip the:

DSE clip and go with Tubular control arms New springs and good shocks
add a sway bar

If the car was a big block - you already have a good rear end? If not - go with a 12 bolt - new leaf springs - good shocks - urethane bushings etc and maybe add some cal tracs

If you have a bb pontiac - just give it a good top quality rebuild - a decent cam -- and maybe for driveability - toss on the FAST EZ EFI - some headers - nice 2 1/2" exhaust.

If you don't have the bb - then just splurge and order a MILDLY built 500 or LESS BB Pontiac - and use the difference for the FAST EZ EFI and headers and Vintage Air or similar serpentine belt set up.

ADD if it doesn't have it already - A/C -- all modern builds should have A/C... it makes the wife want to go - it makes your life nicer - and it increases the value of the car and build. It's easy to add now - and a bitch to add later.

Do a Tremec overdrive transmission - don't cut this corner.

Do disc brakes all the way around. They don't have to be mondo size - and they don't have to be Brembo etc - there are lots of great retro kits out there that will get this car stopped in plenty of time and far better than it did when new.

Do a nice single stage paint job - spend more money on PREP than on paint... the most expensive paint on a poorly prepped body is a total waste! A well prepped laser straight body - with a decent paint job on it is killer - pay more attention to the details of body fitment - door gaps - trunk gaps etc... that is what makes a "quality" car.

DO THE DSE mini tubs... skip this part now - and forever be sorry. With the mini tubs installed - you can run a nice fat tire - and nice looking wheel with modern sizing. To me - this is like the difference between sinks and carpet - you can replace the carpet relatively simply - so no point in spending huge money on it - it gets dirty and dated and is cheap and easy to replace... but how many people do you know rip out their sinks and faucets? So put the money into the stuff you don't "replace"... a hardwood floor is NOT a replacement item - paint on the walls is.

Do the "STRUCTURE" - mini tubs - Engine - Transmission - Rear end - paint and body work. You don't go back to redo these items. Suspension - is a "weekend" project - Brakes are weekend projects - Interiors can be "modified" as money is available... so my advice is - think about what can't be "undone" and redone... if you have to have items hit the cutting room floor. Infrastructure is (to me) - motor/headers - cooling system - steering components (ie - power or rack vs stock etc)... tubs - body - fit and finish - transmission - rear end "housing and axles and gears".

Weekend projects are intake manifolds - carbs - plug wires - valve covers - any and all "dress up" items... not the INTERNALS. Get the suspension "right" - you can upgrade the brakes from a CPP kit to Wilwoods or something like that LATER... Do the dash and it's wiring etc NOW - this is a mess trying to go back and hack it later... Do the Dynamat NOW - you can add electric windows later...

Just "talking here" -- think of it like we were hanging in the garage and blabbing about what you want to do with YOUR car...

[gearheads78]

Lots of good advice from Greg above.

Another vote of an internal rail shifter. I love my TKO600. Its not anything like driving an old car with a muncie and thats what DougNash / Richmond 5 speed would be like.

[Ron Fox]

Originally Posted by GregWeld

Well.... I'm glad you guys jumped in here on this "budget vs wish list" -- 'cause when I saw it - I said to myself.... "Self!... and Self says to me... Greg!... the list of mods and the list of money don't match...

Ron --- I'm being "funny" here - but it's not funny of course. Cars are like remodeling a house... you make a wish list ... get some "bids" -- then tear into the job. The wife then says -- Well... as long as we're here we might as well do X and X... to which you agree - and then you add - well if we're going to do X and X then I want to do Y and Z... and then the builders budget has change order charges - and you start with the cost overruns. It's why people hate remodel jobs. Personally, I absolutely LOVE remodeling houses - because I don't care what it costs and normally don't even ask for a bid - I just say "this is what I want - is this good or can we do it better"? "What else should we do to make it killer?"

Many of the cars on here - are of the later... in other words - they're exercises in "how do I want it done? Period". "Is it done yet?" LOL

I agree with Frank and Mc - that said - you'll have to do some serious soul searching and figure out what you're going to be willing to sacrifice to the budget god. You can build your car with your budget... but not with the list you tossed out there. If it was me... I'd skip the:

DSE clip and go with Tubular control arms New springs and good shocks
add a sway bar

If the car was a big block - you already have a good rear end? If not - go with a 12 bolt - new leaf springs - good shocks - urethane bushings etc and maybe add some cal tracs

If you have a bb pontiac - just give it a good top quality rebuild - a decent cam -- and maybe for driveability - toss on the FAST EZ EFI - some headers - nice 2 1/2" exhaust.

If you don't have the bb - then just splurge and order a MILDLY built 500 or LESS BB Pontiac - and use the difference for the FAST EZ EFI and headers and Vintage Air or similar serpentine belt set up.

ADD if it doesn't have it already - A/C -- all modern builds should have A/C... it makes the wife want to go - it makes your life nicer - and it increases the value of the car and build. It's easy to add now - and a bitch to add later.

Do a Tremec overdrive transmission - don't cut this corner.

Do disc brakes all the way around. They don't have to be mondo size - and they don't have to be Brembo etc - there are lots of great retro kits out there that will get this car stopped in plenty of time and far better than it did when new.

Do a nice single stage paint job - spend more money on PREP than on paint... the most expensive paint on a poorly prepped body is a total waste! A well prepped laser straight body - with a decent paint job on it is killer - pay more attention to the details of body fitment - door gaps - trunk gaps etc... that is what makes a "quality" car.

DO THE DSE mini tubs... skip this part now - and forever be sorry. With the mini tubs installed - you can run a nice fat tire - and nice looking wheel with modern sizing. To me - this is like the difference between sinks and carpet - you can replace the carpet relatively simply - so no point in spending huge money on it - it gets dirty and dated and is cheap and easy to replace... but how many people do you know rip out their sinks and faucets? So put the money into the stuff you don't "replace"... a hardwood floor is NOT a replacement item - paint on the walls is.

Do the "STRUCTURE" - mini tubs - Engine - Transmission - Rear end - paint and body work. You don't go back to redo these items. Suspension - is a "weekend" project - Brakes are weekend projects - Interiors can be "modified" as money is available... so my advice is - think about what can't be "undone" and redone... if you have to have items hit the cutting room floor. Infrastructure is (to me) - motor/headers - cooling system - steering components (ie - power or rack vs stock etc)... tubs - body - fit and finish - transmission - rear end "housing and axles and gears".

Weekend projects are intake manifolds - carbs - plug wires - valve covers - any and all "dress up" items... not the INTERNALS. Get the suspension "right" - you can upgrade the brakes from a CPP kit to Wilwoods or something like that LATER... Do the dash and it's wiring etc NOW - this is a mess trying to go back and hack it later... Do the Dynamat NOW - you can add electric windows later...

Just "talking here" -- think of it like we were hanging in the garage and blabbing about what you want to do with YOUR car...

Great advise Greg. I agree with you about doing the structure items, tubs, motor, rear end, transmission (TKO of course) paint and body. With these areas I do not want to have to go backwards and redo. An after market sub would be nice but not necessary. Is it possible to get the killer stance without a new sub and 4-link set up? The mini's are a must since the car is stripped down to the shell.

I agree with the weekend projects. All these area's can be dealt with without going backwards.

Actually your advice sounds like the advice my builder gave me a year or two ago (after I told him what I wanted). He said just get a stock 455 add some upgrades with a good cam, heads, carb, etc. and I would have a great motor to play with.

Again, great advice. Sorry to get subject away from transmissions but I am glad we did.

Thanks and please keep the info heading my way.

[Ron Fox]

Originally Posted by ProdigyCustoms

I would not mess with the Richmond. I would do TKO600, T56 Magnum, We will have the New Mcloeds in early spring. But no Richmond.

If $50k is our number, we are going to need to trim a few things. A little project planning would go a long way for you.

Let me know if I can be of any help

Thanks Frank for your Richmond opinion. Looks like TREMEC is the way to go.

$50K PLUS is the low end of the build. And yes I need to set down and put my thoughts and prices on paper. A high end build is not out of my reach (it would just take me longer to build) but it also may not be the right way to go.

Are you able to get certain parts at better prices?

Thanks.

[camcojb]

Originally Posted by Ron Fox

Thanks Frank for your Richmond opinion. Looks like TREMEC is the way to go.

$50K PLUS is the low end of the build. And yes I need to set down and put my thoughts and prices on paper. A high end build is not out of my reach (it would just take me longer to build) but it also may not be the right way to go.

Are you able to get certain parts at better prices?

Thanks.

build something that you can afford to do in a reasonable time frame. You don't want to do a long term proiject, too easy to lose interest, constantly changing directions as new things come to the market, plus even though it's cool and modern when designed could be dated by the time it's done.

Build a car that fits the budget and make further changes as money allows. You can actually plan it this way so you're not buying everything twice...........

Jody