Older Richmond 5-Speed in My 1969 Firebird - Lateral-g Forums

Ron Fox · #1 11-18-2009, 10:55 PM

Would a short 1st gear be needed in a high horsepower and somewhat of a middle to large cam car? I have never driven a car with extremely high hp so I do not know what it is like taking off in 1st gear. My builder said it would not be pleasant driving in bumper to bumper traffic (that it would be like taking off in 2nd gear in my Toyota truck like you mentioned)

Personally I do not like the short 1st gear but then again I do not want it to be difficult to take off in 1st gear in a high hp car.

**Flash68** · #2 11-18-2009, 11:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron Fox

Would a short 1st gear be needed in a high horsepower and somewhat of a middle to large cam car? I have never driven a car with extremely high hp so I do not know what it is like taking off in 1st gear. My builder said it would not be pleasant driving in bumper to bumper traffic (that it would be like taking off in 2nd gear in my Toyota truck like you mentioned)

Personally I do not like the short 1st gear but then again I do not want it to be difficult to take off in 1st gear in a high hp car.

What are the specs of this motor? Does it have some nice off-idle torque? Or is it a peaky small block?

I am guessing you do not want this tranny, and for a little more money you can get either a TKO or a T56. I have the TKO and it has a relatively short 1st gear and I would not want anything any shorter like your Richmond likely has.

And I do believe they made a Richmond OD tranny so maybe it does have an overdrive 5th or 6th gear?

Ron Fox · #3 11-19-2009, 07:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flash68

What are the specs of this motor? Does it have some nice off-idle torque? Or is it a peaky small block?

I am guessing you do not want this tranny, and for a little more money you can get either a TKO or a T56. I have the TKO and it has a relatively short 1st gear and I would not want anything any shorter like your Richmond likely has.

And I do believe they made a Richmond OD tranny so maybe it does have an overdrive 5th or 6th gear?

At the moment my car is still waiting for metal work to be completed. The engine has not yet but the plan is for a 455 or slighty larger ci.

Richmond does make a true overdrive called the Super Street Overdrive.

I guess my MAIN CONCERN is taking off in 1st gear with high hp. I do not want the car to bog down when taking off. Please educate me on this but do all High hp cars bog down? I am just in the dark when it comes to transmissions, etc.

Do you like your TKO? Is your car a high hp car and if so does it tend to bog down taking off or difficult driving in traffic?

Thanks for your help.

**GregWeld** · #4 11-19-2009, 07:40 AM

500 hp from a 455 cubic inch motor is almost STOCK...

My 427 small block chevy makes 489 foot pounds of torque as measured at the REAR WHEELS...it idles @ 900 rpms - runs A/C... etc.

Taking off in first gear with 455 cubic inches "or more" is NOT going to be an issue. If you were running 800 hp from a N/A small block... that might be an issue...

Ron Fox · #5 11-19-2009, 08:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GregWeld

500 hp from a 455 cubic inch motor is almost STOCK...

My 427 small block chevy makes 489 foot pounds of torque as measured at the REAR WHEELS...it idles @ 900 rpms - runs A/C... etc.

Taking off in first gear with 455 cubic inches "or more" is NOT going to be an issue. If you were running 800 hp from a N/A small block... that might be an issue...

This is why I like the opinions and advice from others. The overall plan for the car and engine is not set in stone. I have thrown out to my builder that I want a high torque 550+ hp with Butler Performance building the engine. Butler has a 474 to a 501ci that looks temping.

Mkelcy · #6 11-19-2009, 08:08 AM

There are two issues being mixed up here - the overall ratio in first gear and the ease or difficulty of shifting the transmission.

Many trucks have a very low (high numeric) first gear to get a heavy load going. The 3.28 first gear of the Richmond coupled with a "normal" rear end ratio in the mid-3.XX or higher numerically, would give you a super low first gear - you'd be wound out at 20mph. But if the car is geared for the transmission, this can easily be avoided.

The overall gearing of a Tremec TKO600 with the .67 5th gear and a 3.55 rear from first to 5th is as follows: 10.19 - 6.71 - 4.54 - 3.55 - 2.38

The overall gearing of the Richmond which has a 1.0 5th gear and a 3.08 rear from first to 5th is as follows: 10.10 - 6.56 - 4.84 - 3.82 - 3.08

So the two can be made very comparable until you look at 5th gear. To put it in more understandable terms, the Richmond would have you turning about 2,700 to 2,800 rpm at 70mph, the Tremec would have you turning about 2,100 to 2,200 rpm at 70mph. Also, depending on what rear is in the car, the Richmond may require a change in rear ratio, but if you're planning on redoing the rear end anyway, that may not be a big issue.

The second issue is shift quality. An internal rail shifter (the Tremec) is likely to be smoother than the external shifter (the Richmond) if for no other reason than it's protected from the elements. I drove one Richmond and found it very notchy. My internal rail T56 shifts like butter.

There have been some issues with the 2-3 shift in the Tremec TKO600, but most attribute those problems to operator error. I'd also check out the size of the Richmond shifter. I saw a first gen F-body with either a Richmond 5 or six speed that required a lot of cutting on the trans tunnel to accommodate the Long shifter.

Overall, if it were me, I'd skip the Richmond and go with either a Tremec TKO600, a Magnum T56 six speed or a used T56 six speed.

**Flash68** · #7 11-19-2009, 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron Fox

At the moment my car is still waiting for metal work to be completed. The engine has not yet but the plan is for a 455 or slighty larger ci.

Richmond does make a true overdrive called the Super Street Overdrive.

I guess my MAIN CONCERN is taking off in 1st gear with high hp. I do not want the car to bog down when taking off. Please educate me on this but do all High hp cars bog down? I am just in the dark when it comes to transmissions, etc.

Do you like your TKO? Is your car a high hp car and if so does it tend to bog down taking off or difficult driving in traffic?

Thanks for your help.

As was already stated... a big cube torquey engine will have no problems taking off, but it will be a bear with a short 1st gear.

All high hp cars do not bog down. There is no generalization. This is why we are asking about your motor specs as that will tell what driving characteristics it will have. 2 motors with the same hp number can operate and drive night and day differently. EFI vs carb has something to do with low speed drivability too.

I like my TKO so far (only 250 miles) but I wish I woulda got a T56 for the taller first gear. I have an EFI procharged small block with a fairly big cam, but taking off is not a problem.

The only way I could see you using this Richmond trans is if it was free or $100. It is way overpriced I think, and there is a good reason everyone is running either a TKO or T56.

This is one of those times it's okay to follow the masses.

Ron Fox · #8 11-19-2009, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flash68

As was already stated... a big cube torquey engine will have no problems taking off, but it will be a bear with a short 1st gear.

All high hp cars do not bog down. There is no generalization. This is why we are asking about your motor specs as that will tell what driving characteristics it will have. 2 motors with the same hp number can operate and drive night and day differently. EFI vs carb has something to do with low speed drivability too.

I like my TKO so far (only 250 miles) but I wish I woulda got a T56 for the taller first gear. I have an EFI procharged small block with a fairly big cam, but taking off is not a problem.

The only way I could see you using this Richmond trans is if it was free or $100. It is way overpriced I think, and there is a good reason everyone is running either a TKO or T56.

This is one of those times it's okay to follow the masses.

Now I see. So when building my motor I need to be specific (with the builder) on what type of motor I want.

The T56 taller first gear means....you can hold it longer?

Thanks.

Mkelcy · #9 11-19-2009, 03:05 PM

With respect, I'm a little worried about what you're embarking on.

You needn't be an automotive engineer to own one of these old, retro-modded muscle cars, but a fair amount of familiarity with cars, how they work, basic trouble shooting techniques (is the noise associated with engine speed or car speed) and the like is awfully helpful, otherwise you are at the mercy of your local mechanic, who may or may not even be willing to work on an older, modified car.

I'm not trying to discourage you, but rather to urge you to do a lot of reading, starting with the basics of how engines, transmissions, rear ends, etc. all work, and moving up from there. You also need to know every part that's on your car - i.e., the front brakes came from a 2002 Corvette; the transmission is out of a 2000 Camaro - just to be able to get parts and to get it worked on.

awr68 · #10 11-19-2009, 04:37 PM

FWIW, Larry, the owner of PT.com has a Richmond in his car and says it's getting swapped out SOON!

I have driven cars with T56's and liked them a lot! I have a T56 for my car and got it for $1100 and it's a fresh rebuild out of a '97 Camaro.

There ya go....in my mind, I have a far better trans for less money and wouldn't even consider buying the Richmond.

Remember, just because you hired a builder doesn't mean they get to choose the parts....this is your car/build and you make all final decisions...otherwise this isn't going to end well! Job one is to know what you are building and understand it....you are talking a lot of money here, especially when you are paying for labor! Don't get in a hurry...you have time to learn....we all had too!!