What would a USCA pro-touring class look like??

[71RS/SS396]

I personally don't like the idea of docking cars points for rollbars that are difficult to climb over, or seats that are difficult to get in. These items are safety related imho, these cars are to damn fast now to not have these things on a road course. I'm at the point with mine now where I'm backing out of the throttle down the straights at tracks like Vir because it badly needs aero to be safe at the speeds it's capable of.

[LS7 Z/28]

Originally Posted by 71RS/SS396

I personally don't like the idea of docking cars points for rollbars that are difficult to climb over, or seats that are difficult to get in. These items are safety related imho, these cars are to damn fast now to not have these things on a road course. I'm at the point with mine now where I'm backing out of the throttle down the straights at tracks like Vir because it badly needs aero to be safe at the speeds it's capable of.

I agree with you 100%

I don't understand when people say things like "if you have race seats and door bars to climb over then you should lose points in the judging portion"

I think the people who don't have at least a 4 point cage, harnesses and safer than stock seats properly installed; should be the ones who lose points for endangering themselves, sort of like a cop writing you a ticket for not wearing your belt.

There are definitely ways to integrate safety equipment into your car and keep the street functionality of it. There should be no excuses.

I can't believe people run the speed they do on the roadcourse and then justify the fact that they don't have those safety items in their car by saying things like "well my car is a street car and I use it a lot so I don't want a roll cage, harnesses and race seats"

Well, if you're attending events like the USCA puts on then you are using it for much more than just street driving. Whether it's cost, lack of understanding or just a mentality that a person wants to keep their car a "street car" I just don't understand how someone can justify putting themselves at risk.

[James OLC]

Originally Posted by 71RS/SS396

I personally don't like the idea of docking cars points for rollbars that are difficult to climb over, or seats that are difficult to get in. These items are safety related imho, these cars are to damn fast now to not have these things on a road course. I'm at the point with mine now where I'm backing out of the throttle down the straights at tracks like Vir because it badly needs aero to be safe at the speeds it's capable of.

That is possible one of the most important contributions to this conversation. Nothing will hurt the series more than penalizing competitors for safety in order to satisfy spectators desire to prove how much of a street car these are.

At the end of the day we are out there driving running in these events because we want to - not because we have to - and we are pushing our cars, and ourselves, to satisfy our own desire to challenge ourselves and enjoy our car. Folks are not going to go that if they do not feel safe. There was a fair bit of talk at SEMA about the need for MORE safety equipment in the faster cars and how to ensure that we can all have fun, put on a good show, and be safe. For non-competitors to suggest that faster (or any) drivers should somehow put themselves at risk to be more "stock" is unrealistic and unfair.

[71RS/SS396]

Originally Posted by James OLC

That is possible one of the most important contributions to this conversation. Nothing will hurt the series more than penalizing competitors for safety in order to satisfy spectators desire to prove how much of a street car these are.

At the end of the day we are out there driving running in these events because we want to - not because we have to - and we are pushing our cars, and ourselves, to satisfy our own desire to challenge ourselves and enjoy our car. Folks are not going to go that if they do not feel safe. There was a fair bit of talk at SEMA about the need for MORE safety equipment in the faster cars and how to ensure that we can all have fun, put on a good show, and be safe. For non-competitors to suggest that faster (or any) drivers should somehow put themselves at risk to be more "stock" is unrealistic and unfair.

I agree James, it seems to be the big elephant in the room and a line nobody wants to step over. Cages should be REQUIRED to run in the faster class. Most of, if not all (mine included) of the cars do not have enough cage in them to be safe considering how heavy these cars are and the speeds they're capable of.
I know it will probably get into a whole bunch of legal liabilities with certification.... etc, but I'm sure there will be a lawsuit if someone is injured badly or god forbid someone dies in a crash.
I don't care how good the driver is, things can happen on the track that you can't control. I had a guy in a Ferrari blow an engine right in front of me at corner 10 exit at Vir in the spring, I drove through oil at probably well over 100 mph and went off sideways through the grass, it could have been very bad had the ground been soft and the tires dug in.

[Musclerodz]

I just started reading this thread. I'm suprised it took till page 13 for someone to bring up the topic of safety and discuss it. During the USCA days and GG events, the small tracks and slower speeds was not as big of an issue, now we are running big tracks at race car speeds without race car safety in alot of the cars competing. I think everyone has been extremely lucky that nothing catastrophic has happened yet. If is not a matter of "if", its a matter of "when".

[EBMC]

Originally Posted by 71RS/SS396

I agree James, it seems to be the big elephant in the room and a line nobody wants to step over. Cages should be REQUIRED to run in the faster class. Most of, if not all (mine included) of the cars do not have enough cage in them to be safe considering how heavy these cars are and the speeds they're capable of.
I know it will probably get into a whole bunch of legal liabilities with certification.... etc, but I'm sure there will be a lawsuit if someone is injured badly or god forbid someone dies in a crash.
I don't care how good the driver is, things can happen on the track that you can't control. I had a guy in a Ferrari blow an engine right in front of me at corner 10 exit at Vir in the spring, I drove through oil at probably well over 100 mph and went off sideways through the grass, it could have been very bad had the ground been soft and the tires dug in.

This has always been a big concern of mine. A lot of these cars are very high horespower, not set up for track, drivers that arent expeirienced in a " race" environment and may push things too hard because they feel thats what their car and cababilities SHOULD be able to do. Things can go wrong very quick no matter who you are. Its going to have to be addressed.

[GrabberGT]

Originally Posted by James OLC

That is possible one of the most important contributions to this conversation. Nothing will hurt the series more than penalizing competitors for safety in order to satisfy spectators desire to prove how much of a street car these are.

At the end of the day we are out there driving running in these events because we want to - not because we have to - and we are pushing our cars, and ourselves, to satisfy our own desire to challenge ourselves and enjoy our car. Folks are not going to go that if they do not feel safe. There was a fair bit of talk at SEMA about the need for MORE safety equipment in the faster cars and how to ensure that we can all have fun, put on a good show, and be safe. For non-competitors to suggest that faster (or any) drivers should somehow put themselves at risk to be more "stock" is unrealistic and unfair.

"Non-Competitor" here... Im only stating my opinion as others are. My car will never have the style, fit, finish, or speed necessary to be competitive in any aspect of these events no matter what the rules are and Im fine with that. I just like to drive my car and do the best I can with what I have. What I do care about though is to continue seeing our segment thrive in these events. I believe there needs to be a class structure as you and others have defined already. In addition, I believe the streetcar aspects need to be emphasized more.

My thoughts on streetcar judging isnt for a car with safety equipment to be penalized but to provide more criteria to judge a cars true street friendliness. Its "Streetcar" challenge after-all. If you have to climb thru a cage in order to get in and out of a car, have limited visibility due to race seats, and cant effectively check your blind spots due to being harnessed in, then in my opinion it isnt very street friendly.

To address the other concern about going this fast without such safety items. Maybe we shouldn't be. In other organizations, you and your car have to qualify to go "XXX" speeds. Why not here? Can I take my car to Silver State and run 150 right out of the gate? Heck no. Can I run 10's in the 1/4? Nope. Can I run in the fastest group at a NASA event? Nah.

Now having said that, lets look again at the scenario. A street car scoring high in the Streetcar side likely doesnt qualify to do the speeds the more race oriented car can do. (Unless your Steilow and drive a car like Hellfire) Its a points tradeoff. Nobody said the Ultimate Streetcar has to be the absolute fastest.

Just some thoughts

[71RS/SS396]

Originally Posted by GrabberGT

"Non-Competitor" here... Im only stating my opinion as others are. My car will never have the style, fit, finish, or speed necessary to be competitive in any aspect of these events no matter what the rules are and Im fine with that. I just like to drive my car and do the best I can with what I have. What I do care about though is to continue seeing our segment thrive in these events. I believe there needs to be a class structure as you and others have defined already. In addition, I believe the streetcar aspects need to be emphasized more.

My thoughts on streetcar judging isnt for a car with safety equipment to be penalized but to provide more criteria to judge a cars true street friendliness. Its "Streetcar" challenge after-all. If you have to climb thru a cage in order to get in and out of a car, have limited visibility due to race seats, and cant effectively check your blind spots due to being harnessed in, then in my opinion it isnt very street friendly.

To address the other concern about going this fast without such safety items. Maybe we shouldn't be. In other organizations, you and your car have to qualify to go "XXX" speeds. Why not here? Can I take my car to Silver State and run 150 right out of the gate? Heck no. Can I run 10's in the 1/4? Nope. Can I run in the fastest group at a NASA event? Nah.

Now having said that, lets look again at the scenario. A street car scoring high in the Streetcar side likely doesnt qualify to do the speeds the more race oriented car can do. (Unless your Steilow and drive a car like Hellfire) Its a points tradeoff. Nobody said the Ultimate Streetcar has to be the absolute fastest.

Just some thoughts

Chris, have you ever been in a truly fast car on a big road course, not the little infield course we ran at TMS? I'm talking somewhere like Vir or Road America.
I bet if I put a stock seat and a 3 point belt in the passenger side and took out at Vir you wouldn't be able to stay in the seat.

[GrabberGT]

Originally Posted by 71RS/SS396

Chris, have you ever been in a truly fast car on a big road course, not the little infield course we ran at TMS? I'm talking somewhere like Vir or Road America.
I bet if I put a stock seat and a 3 point belt in the passenger side and took out at Vir you wouldn't be able to stay in the seat.

You'll get no argument out of me on this. I fully agree. The point is, if all you have is a stock seat and 3 point belts, should you be allowed to go fast enough to get thrown out of the seat? That person showed up to the event to hang out, have a good time, and compete in a "Streetcar" event. This car is more Streetcar than the DSE White Monster Camaro but doesnt stand a chance against it. There's a 25 point spread allocated to the top so many cars for speed. If youre out of that range you get 1 point. Maybe we should award the points for the racing the same as the Style and Design event. Give 15 points for just for crossing the start/finish line and a possible 10 more based on how fast you can go. If the streetcar is not allowed to compete at the speeds of the Monster Camaro, should it be judged in the same group?

For the record, I have 6-point harness, seats, and plans to eventually add a roll bar. I still dont plan to drive 150 but at least I'll feel better about driving 100ish on a road course.

[71RS/SS396]

Originally Posted by GrabberGT

You'll get no argument out of me on this. I fully agree. The point is, if all you have is a stock seat and 3 point belts, should you be allowed to go fast enough to get thrown out of the seat? That person showed up to the event to hang out, have a good time, and compete in a "Streetcar" event. This car is more Streetcar than the DSE White Monster Camaro but doesnt stand a chance against it. There's a 25 point spread allocated to the top so many cars for speed. If youre out of that range you get 1 point. Maybe we should award the points for the racing the same as the Style and Design event. Give 15 points for just for crossing the start/finish line and a possible 10 more based on how fast you can go. If the streetcar is not allowed to compete at the speeds of the Monster Camaro, should it be judged in the same group?

For the record, I have 6-point harness, seats, and plans to eventually add a roll bar. I still dont plan to drive 150 but at least I'll feel better about driving 100ish on a road course.

Last I checked this is a driving competition, right? If it wasn't then there wouldn't be 3 out of the 5 segments being performance based.
Some of what you've suggested penalizes a car with proper safety equipment in the name of what an opinion of a street car should be. Everyone has a tolerance level for what they want to put up with for extended driving.
I'm 100% against penalizing a car for safety related equipment, diluting the competition by giving the guy with the 3 point belt extra credit as a street car could chase away the properly prepared cars and then will it truly be the Ultimate Street Car?