What would a USCA pro-touring class look like??

[camcojb]

Originally Posted by Rod P

agreed, but this is in play to even the Vintage car field...I know of two cars at the last OUSCI event, Steilows 69 Camaro and Thurmans 64 vette both had ABS...I know that they cant compete with the modern cars...but those aids help them against classic muscle, all drivers aids drive together, or remove the aids completely and return to the standards class

I understand it gives them an advantage over the older cars, but it isn't anywhere near enough to make them compete evenly with late model cars. So I still don't think that's the way to make two classes.

[Rod P]

Originally Posted by camcojb

I understand it gives them an advantage over the older cars, but it isn't anywhere near enough to make them compete evenly with late model cars. So I still don't think that's the way to make two classes.

it is going to very contested...talk about being between a rock and a hard place..glad I don't have to make the final decision

[Stuart Adams]

I think the goal of the event needs to be addressed. What is the end result from Optima that is desired. The judging is dumb, that is why I asked. It must have something to do with the goal. You can't have stopwatch scoring and beauty pageant scoring combined, IMO. Obviously many factors come into play. I get all the emotional getting together stuff, car guy hanging out, different types of cars, different clicks within the groups, new vs old, etc, etc.

It is invitational and having a variety increases interest and more moola.
Personally I like seeing all the different cars at the event. I think we get too caught up in who wins. Doesn't mean diddly poo in the real world. You should judge yourself based on your car group. Just post the numbers of each car in their model group and also compared to all and call it a day. If its the fastest overall its the champ overall. Need to compare apples to apples. IMO. At least you could see and the spectators could see where you stand within your group. It would actually be more competitive IMO.

Also a concern of mine is the more often a car off the shelf wins or is much more competitive than the pro touring cars, it will start to erode the interest in choosing to modify old iron vs just buying off the lot. My own selfish way wants to see all the core pro touring businesses continue growing.

The gap that has been closed by the old iron with the new suspension upgrades, engines, etc has been remarkable. Think what the time difference would be from a bone stock 69 Camaro to Stielow's 69. The core pro touring guys should be damn proud of the before (stock) to todays version.

[Vegas69]

Most of the participants are competitors. Some want to see how they stack up, others are there for the win. A winner is important or many would never show up and put in the insane effort it takes to have a chance to win. The series needs the competitiveness to succeed.

[GregWeld]

I still say --- It's their swim party and their pool... you either want to be a part of that, or sit on the side lines and whine about "fairness" etc. The 100 car field this year kinda says plenty of people are happy to participate.

My guess is that 100% of them would come again next year if invited... and if they knew that they were going to go again - every one of them would be thrashing on their cars to "make them better"... regardless of whether or not they thought they had any chance to win anything.

[Matt@BOS]

Originally Posted by GregWeld

I still say --- It's their swim party and their pool... you either want to be a part of that, or sit on the side lines and whine about "fairness" etc. The 100 car field this year kinda says plenty of people are happy to participate.

My guess is that 100% of them would come again next year if invited... and if they knew that they were going to go again - every one of them would be thrashing on their cars to "make them better"... regardless of whether or not they thought they had any chance to win anything.

Agreed! If I knew I was going in 2015 I'd be dropping more into the money pit to try and ease my fears of finishing last.

[DBasher]

Over 3k
Under 3k
AWD
And.....vintage

Draw the line in the 70's and call it a day. It's racing, kinda, and it'll never be "fair". There is no "fair" in racing, always someone faster, prettier, able to make more events and on and on. Whose winning? Anyone that shows up throughout the year and competes on these awesome tracks! Don't like the rules of a "hobby" event, than stay at home and read about how much fun people have had participating.

I think Vegas should stay with one winner takes all as the "Ultimate Street Car". You can win a class even if you don't win the overall.....who here is capable of winning the overall anyways?

[Sieg]

Originally Posted by Matt.A

Agreed! If I knew I was going in 2015 I'd be dropping more into the money pit to try and ease my fears of being beat by Escobar's 4 cyl Pinto.

Fixed it for ya.

[eric1967]

Originally Posted by Stuart Adams

I think the goal of the event needs to be addressed. What is the end result from Optima that is desired. The judging is dumb, that is why I asked. It must have something to do with the goal. You can't have stopwatch scoring and beauty pageant scoring combined, IMO. Obviously many factors come into play. I get all the emotional getting together stuff, car guy hanging out, different types of cars, different clicks within the groups, new vs old, etc, etc.

It is invitational and having a variety increases interest and more moola.
Personally I like seeing all the different cars at the event. I think we get too caught up in who wins. Doesn't mean diddly poo in the real world. You should judge yourself based on your car group. Just post the numbers of each car in their model group and also compared to all and call it a day. If its the fastest overall its the champ overall. Need to compare apples to apples. IMO. At least you could see and the spectators could see where you stand within your group. It would actually be more competitive IMO.

Also a concern of mine is the more often a car off the shelf wins or is much more competitive than the pro touring cars, it will start to erode the interest in choosing to modify old iron vs just buying off the lot. My own selfish way wants to see all the core pro touring businesses continue growing.

The gap that has been closed by the old iron with the new suspension upgrades, engines, etc has been remarkable. Think what the time difference would be from a bone stock 69 Camaro to Stielow's 69. The core pro touring guys should be damn proud of the before (stock) to todays version.

Well spoken Stuart. I agree the judging is pretty stupid. When you use these cars the get rock chips, scratched & dirty. I could care less what somebody thinks of my car. If you like it that's great, if not that's fine also. I built it for me & my family.
Most people do not realize the talent of guys like Danny Popp. I have been doing autocross events for several years. Danny Popp could get in my car right now having never driven it & kick my but. He can do that with most of the cars at these events. Don't believe me let him drive your car.

[GrabberGT]

Originally Posted by Stuart Adams

I think the goal of the event needs to be addressed. What is the end result from Optima that is desired. The judging is dumb, that is why I asked. It must have something to do with the goal. You can't have stopwatch scoring and beauty pageant scoring combined, IMO. Obviously many factors come into play. I get all the emotional getting together stuff, car guy hanging out, different types of cars, different clicks within the groups, new vs old, etc, etc.

It is invitational and having a variety increases interest and more moola.
Personally I like seeing all the different cars at the event. I think we get too caught up in who wins. Doesn't mean diddly poo in the real world. You should judge yourself based on your car group. Just post the numbers of each car in their model group and also compared to all and call it a day. If its the fastest overall its the champ overall. Need to compare apples to apples. IMO. At least you could see and the spectators could see where you stand within your group. It would actually be more competitive IMO.

Also a concern of mine is the more often a car off the shelf wins or is much more competitive than the pro touring cars, it will start to erode the interest in choosing to modify old iron vs just buying off the lot. My own selfish way wants to see all the core pro touring businesses continue growing.

The gap that has been closed by the old iron with the new suspension upgrades, engines, etc has been remarkable. Think what the time difference would be from a bone stock 69 Camaro to Stielow's 69. The core pro touring guys should be damn proud of the before (stock) to todays version.

I thought the judging aspect is there to help keep the Street Car in the event. Registered and insured as street legal is not enough. For many of us, the state only requires minimum safety inspection to pass as a street car. That is, parking brake, horn, signals, and lights. Anything else goes. Strip away all that excess (interior panels, windows, carpet, dash...) and you end up with street legal car shells jumping in the mix.