What would a USCA pro-touring class look like??

[Stuart Adams]

I think the goal of the event needs to be addressed. What is the end result from Optima that is desired. The judging is dumb, that is why I asked. It must have something to do with the goal. You can't have stopwatch scoring and beauty pageant scoring combined, IMO. Obviously many factors come into play. I get all the emotional getting together stuff, car guy hanging out, different types of cars, different clicks within the groups, new vs old, etc, etc.

It is invitational and having a variety increases interest and more moola.
Personally I like seeing all the different cars at the event. I think we get too caught up in who wins. Doesn't mean diddly poo in the real world. You should judge yourself based on your car group. Just post the numbers of each car in their model group and also compared to all and call it a day. If its the fastest overall its the champ overall. Need to compare apples to apples. IMO. At least you could see and the spectators could see where you stand within your group. It would actually be more competitive IMO.

Also a concern of mine is the more often a car off the shelf wins or is much more competitive than the pro touring cars, it will start to erode the interest in choosing to modify old iron vs just buying off the lot. My own selfish way wants to see all the core pro touring businesses continue growing.

The gap that has been closed by the old iron with the new suspension upgrades, engines, etc has been remarkable. Think what the time difference would be from a bone stock 69 Camaro to Stielow's 69. The core pro touring guys should be damn proud of the before (stock) to todays version.

[Vegas69]

Most of the participants are competitors. Some want to see how they stack up, others are there for the win. A winner is important or many would never show up and put in the insane effort it takes to have a chance to win. The series needs the competitiveness to succeed.

[GregWeld]

I still say --- It's their swim party and their pool... you either want to be a part of that, or sit on the side lines and whine about "fairness" etc. The 100 car field this year kinda says plenty of people are happy to participate.

My guess is that 100% of them would come again next year if invited... and if they knew that they were going to go again - every one of them would be thrashing on their cars to "make them better"... regardless of whether or not they thought they had any chance to win anything.

[Matt@BOS]

Originally Posted by GregWeld

I still say --- It's their swim party and their pool... you either want to be a part of that, or sit on the side lines and whine about "fairness" etc. The 100 car field this year kinda says plenty of people are happy to participate.

My guess is that 100% of them would come again next year if invited... and if they knew that they were going to go again - every one of them would be thrashing on their cars to "make them better"... regardless of whether or not they thought they had any chance to win anything.

Agreed! If I knew I was going in 2015 I'd be dropping more into the money pit to try and ease my fears of finishing last.

[DBasher]

Over 3k
Under 3k
AWD
And.....vintage

Draw the line in the 70's and call it a day. It's racing, kinda, and it'll never be "fair". There is no "fair" in racing, always someone faster, prettier, able to make more events and on and on. Whose winning? Anyone that shows up throughout the year and competes on these awesome tracks! Don't like the rules of a "hobby" event, than stay at home and read about how much fun people have had participating.

I think Vegas should stay with one winner takes all as the "Ultimate Street Car". You can win a class even if you don't win the overall.....who here is capable of winning the overall anyways?

[Che70velle]

Originally Posted by DBasher

Over 3k
Under 3k
AWD
And.....vintage

Draw the line in the 70's and call it a day. It's racing, kinda, and it'll never be "fair". There is no "fair" in racing, always someone faster, prettier, able to make more events and on and on. Whose winning? Anyone that shows up throughout the year and competes on these awesome tracks! Don't like the rules of a "hobby" event, than stay at home and read about how much fun people have had participating.

I think Vegas should stay with one winner takes all as the "Ultimate Street Car". You can win a class even if you don't win the overall.....who here is capable of winning the overall anyways?

It seems as though "fair" is a curse word on this thread. I've never raced in a class that wasn't against other equally prepared vehicles, from AMA quads, to Nascar late models. Yes, somebody will always be faster, and have more money to spend than you. That's just racing. Classes, just as you described, will create equality, and lead to a more, dare I say, fair race, um, time trial, which will bring more participants. It's no fun, for me at least, to watch a couple unequal cars, or trucks, or whatever's, run against each other.
So nobody here has ever won the overall?

[SSLance]

This issue is, it's very difficult to establish "fair" with such a wide variety of car types and allowed mods to said cars without ending up with 37 different classes. The problem with having so many different classes is you don't get enough participation in each class itself.

All some of us are asking for is just a simple one or two rules or classes to separate each end of the spectrum from the other in a somewhat fair way. Tire width, certain age group or even Rodney's electronic vs non-electronic division of cars are all good ideas, none of which exclude anyone but separate the group just enough so that the primitive cars don't get completely dominated by the late model cars.

[Sieg]

Originally Posted by Matt.A

Agreed! If I knew I was going in 2015 I'd be dropping more into the money pit to try and ease my fears of being beat by Escobar's 4 cyl Pinto.

Fixed it for ya.

[Matt@BOS]

Originally Posted by Sieg

Fixed it for ya.

I'm not afraid of Joe. No need to worry about his Pinto. I'm pretty sure he already beat me in the standings this year.

[eric1967]

Originally Posted by Stuart Adams

I think the goal of the event needs to be addressed. What is the end result from Optima that is desired. The judging is dumb, that is why I asked. It must have something to do with the goal. You can't have stopwatch scoring and beauty pageant scoring combined, IMO. Obviously many factors come into play. I get all the emotional getting together stuff, car guy hanging out, different types of cars, different clicks within the groups, new vs old, etc, etc.

It is invitational and having a variety increases interest and more moola.
Personally I like seeing all the different cars at the event. I think we get too caught up in who wins. Doesn't mean diddly poo in the real world. You should judge yourself based on your car group. Just post the numbers of each car in their model group and also compared to all and call it a day. If its the fastest overall its the champ overall. Need to compare apples to apples. IMO. At least you could see and the spectators could see where you stand within your group. It would actually be more competitive IMO.

Also a concern of mine is the more often a car off the shelf wins or is much more competitive than the pro touring cars, it will start to erode the interest in choosing to modify old iron vs just buying off the lot. My own selfish way wants to see all the core pro touring businesses continue growing.

The gap that has been closed by the old iron with the new suspension upgrades, engines, etc has been remarkable. Think what the time difference would be from a bone stock 69 Camaro to Stielow's 69. The core pro touring guys should be damn proud of the before (stock) to todays version.

Well spoken Stuart. I agree the judging is pretty stupid. When you use these cars the get rock chips, scratched & dirty. I could care less what somebody thinks of my car. If you like it that's great, if not that's fine also. I built it for me & my family.
Most people do not realize the talent of guys like Danny Popp. I have been doing autocross events for several years. Danny Popp could get in my car right now having never driven it & kick my but. He can do that with most of the cars at these events. Don't believe me let him drive your car.