What do you do when your product is knocked off?

[dhutton]

I'll probably get flamed for this but this is what I posted over on the other site:

I've spent over 30 years in product development/engineering and although it seems unfair this is just normal product life cycle. When you first introduce something new and innovative profits and margins are high (at least they should be). Eventually competition comes on board followed by price erosion as each tries to maintain/gain market share. The best way to survive is to find lower cost ways to manufacture the product to help maintain margins. That and moving on to the next great new idea which starts the cycle all over again. In essence this is what you did when you introduced your geometric version. No one can expect to have a market all to themselves forever. Sooner or later someone notices your success and wants a share.

I know this is not what you are wanting to hear but this has been my experience/observation.

Don

[XcYZ]

Originally Posted by dhutton

I'll probably get flamed for this but this is what I posted over on the other site:

I've spent over 30 years in product development/engineering and although it seems unfair this is just normal product life cycle. When you first introduce something new and innovative profits and margins are high (at least they should be). Eventually competition comes on board followed by price erosion as each tries to maintain/gain market share. The best way to survive is to find lower cost ways to manufacture the product to help maintain margins. That and moving on to the next great new idea which starts the cycle all over again. In essence this is what you did when you introduced your geometric version. No one can expect to have a market all to themselves forever. Sooner or later someone notices your success and wants a share.

I know this is not what you are wanting to hear but this has been my experience/observation.

Don

Don, this isn't flaming you or argueing your excellent points, but rather my take on it...

This is no different than if I took a Hermance Design rendering, changed the color, added my logo, then started selling it. Just looking at it, you know it's a Hermance product. In this case, Fesler changed one design element, added his logo, then started selling it.

[Ringbrothers]

Don- I hope no one flames you (not sure what that means). We do understand the process this was just too much of a sting to not say anything. I don't want this to be a hateful thing. I just want for once to be clear on who is who and what is what. I wanted to say it many times before but the boy's would have fired me.

Staci

[96z28ss]

Originally Posted by XcYZ

If I were a photographer, and somebody blatantly photocopied my work and started pumping it out for a profit, I'd be PISSED.

If I were a artist creating renderings, and somebody blatantly photocopied my work and starting pumping it out for a profit, I'd be PISSED.

If I were a wheel designer, and somebody blatantly photocopied my work and started pumping it out for a profit, I'd be PISSED.



This is no different. Fesler did nothing but photocopy a Ringbrothers product and start pumping it out the door. Ringbrothers have every right to be PISSED.

You can be pissed. However pictures and art work is totally different.

You brought up a perfect situation. There are a ton of wheel manufacturers out there and they all have similar wheel designs. Some of them are almost exact copies of each other. Its just part of doing business.

I go to Sema every year. I walk the entire show, up and down every row, every building. Looking for new trends, see what competitors are doing, to help the company I work for to stay the leader in the industry. Every year I see knock offs of what we make.

I have Ringbrother, Fesler, and Marquez stuff on my car. I'm not taking sides one way or the other.

[XcYZ]

Originally Posted by 96z28ss

You can be pissed. However pictures and art work is totally different.

How is it different? It's still a product, not a service.

I see using a photocopier to copy 2D products the same as using a rapid prototyping scanner to copy 3D products.

[nvr2fst]

Is there a price difference between the two?
With that said, could this be a "you get what u pay for"
If there priced equivalent, than its basically up to the consumer to chose from there. I definitely understand the RB's frustration, but as most of posted theres not much you can do. It basically comes down to marketing/customer service in my opinion. RB has innovated a lot of really cool products over the years that most likely will continue to be somewhat copied.
I look at it this way, its like buying body panels... most tend to purchase Goodmark ("the original/preferred") in lieu second hand overseas companies following suit. Personally I like to stick with "the originator"

[clill]

I believe AMD makes the better sheetmetal now.

http://www.autometaldirect.com/aboutus.aspx

[Matt@BOS]

Originally Posted by JKnight

Yeah, this is really very sad. Unfortunately, when I saw Fesler's "new" product release I thought, hmmmm, those look exactly like the RingBros design.

I don't have any advice for you guys, but can say that awareness of these issues will always drive my purchasing decisions.

That's what I was thinking the other day too. Unfortunately, not everyone knows, who is actually creating the innovative products. Case in point, at SEMA last year, one of your competitor in question won a GM design award for "most innovative products."

I'm curious Greg, if the Ring Brothers had taken the time to protect their hinge design prior to release, would it matter in a situation like this? I've heard from a few small companies around here that the costs generally don't outweigh the benefits because if the design is changed 10 percent or so by the competitor, then it is fair game. In this case, the new hinges aren't completely "air-framed." Also, I kept thinking that there was a difference in the strut mounting position, but then I noticed both are now horizontal. I can't even keep up with who is being innovative anymore

Matt

[GregWeld]

Originally Posted by 69MSA

I'm curious Greg, if the Ring Brothers had taken the time to protect their hinge design prior to release, would it matter in a situation like this? I've heard from a few small companies around here that the costs generally don't outweigh the benefits because if the design is changed 10 percent or so by the competitor, then it is fair game. In this case, the new hinges aren't completely "air-framed." Also, I kept thinking that there was a difference in the strut mounting position, but then I noticed both are now horizontal. I can't even keep up with who is being innovative anymore

Matt

Good question, Matt, for which I have no answer. I would ASSume that you'd copy right/patent the design aspect of the hinge being billet... and several other more "cohesive" design elements in order to give you the broadest possible protection. Even then - I'm not sure what could be copy righted and or what that costs. My guess is - it's prohibitive. I just spent a quarter million on litigation and it was a very simple issue. The bills get real high - real fast, when it comes to "legal stuff". At some point it just isn't economically feasible.

[96z28ss]

Originally Posted by 69MSA

Also, I kept thinking that there was a difference in the strut mounting position, but then I noticed both are now horizontal. I can't even keep up with who is being innovative anymore

Matt

I started thinking about what you wrote Matt.
On my camaro I have the old style Ringbrothers Hinge. It has the shock pointing downward. Also my early version has an adjustable link that tie the 2 arms together (they stopped doing that) . These were the only Hinge at the time of purchase. attachment 1.

I did a search here for when Fesler announced his hinge summer of 2007 this thread.
https://lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?t=10434

Looking at the pictures you can see that his hinge is more then a 10% difference. The base is different, his shock placement is different, the arms are different.

The weird thing is that now Ringbrothers changed the camaro hinge to a base and shock position that look more like the Fesler ones. attachment 2.

One reason why I can think of is cost of manufacturing. The base being smaller and the one arm being smaller.

Like I said before I have both the RB and Fesler stuff on my car. What you shouldn't do is call out someone for taking an idea when its happened the other way around also.

Billet parts is a hard business to get into and not have competitors run with your ideas. Look at the Billet motorcycle parts. Most of it is now made in China. It hasn't reached the pro-touring parts yet but it will. Ever walk the Asia market section at SEMA?

You need to market and brand yourself as the First, and having a more superior Quality than the competitors. Also to be successful you have to be first to market with new products. That way your selling as much as you can before the competition can make a similar product.