What would a USCA pro-touring class look like??

[camcojb]

The 2014 USCA Optima Ultimate Street Car Invitational was awesome. Had a great time, and if you have a chance you really need to attend these events.

In the finals it's "run what you brung"; no classes for individual cars. But what would a pro-touring class look like if there were classes for competitors? I'd love to hear your thoughts.

[SSLance]

I've been involved with this discussion on the SCCA level in regards to their CAM class.

IMHO, a tire width rule is the simplest easiest way to separate the cars. My proposal was for 2 classes, one 275 series tires and under, the other for any car with wider tires. In their case the 3rd class for the 2 seaters is also appropriate and I don't have a problem with it either.

It really doesn't matter how much power you make or handle you have tuned into your car...if it's only got so much tire to grip the track, that's as fast as you are going to go. I see no need to further separate the body styles, model year, extent of mods...any further than tire size.

[camcojb]

Originally Posted by SSLance

I've been involved with this discussion on the SCCA level in regards to their CAM class.

IMHO, a tire width rule is the simplest easiest way to separate the cars. My proposal was for 2 classes, one 275 series tires and under, the other for any car with wider tires. In their case the 3rd class for the 2 seaters is also appropriate and I don't have a problem with it either.

It really doesn't matter how much power you make or handle you have tuned into your car...if it's only got so much tire to grip the track, that's as fast as you are going to go. I see no need to further separate the body styles, model year, extent of mods...any further than tire size.

I think you need more than tire size. You put identical sizes on any 69 Camaro you want and a newer Vette, and with similar drivers and power the Vette wins every time. There's such a difference in aero, track width, center of gravity, etc. that the older car cannot make up the difference.

Here's a good example. Take a new ZR1 and "Jackass". They have identical engines, wheels/tires/brakes. Put Mark in both cars and he'll be much faster on the track in the new ZR1.

[dontlifttoshift]

I don't think a meaningful discussion can be had about classing without clearly presenting the problem that one may be trying to solve with classing.

I believe simplest is best. I also believe the fastest driver will win 95% of the time.

[Al Moreno]

Originally Posted by dontlifttoshift

I also believe the fastest driver will win 95% of the time.

At the end of the day, these cars dont drive themselves. So I agree with you 100%!

[camcojb]

Originally Posted by dontlifttoshift

I don't think a meaningful discussion can be had about classing without clearly presenting the problem that one may be trying to solve with classing.

I believe simplest is best. I also believe the fastest driver will win 95% of the time.

What we're looking to discuss is how to set up rules for a pro-touring class. There are huge advantages to run late model vehicles in this event if there's only one class. I'd like to see the older muscle cars we love and build be able to compete with each other. If your only goal is to win it all then you'll want to build a late model Vette, F-body, etc.

Yes a great driver in an older car can win, several have done that. But now that there's great drivers in all the cars the older stuff is much less competitive simply by the reasons I mentioned earlier. By the way, I am not against the later model cars competing. It was great seeing Danny and the others hauling butt on the track. I'm just afraid we'll lose the muscle car guys if they feel there's no way to openly compete.

[dontlifttoshift]

Originally Posted by SSLance

I don't disagree...but the Vette is a two seater. Let the two seaters run with the two seaters.

Define what a rear seat is. My Mustang won't have a rear seat. I don't think Marks car has a rear seat, so now they are 2 seaters.

Originally Posted by camcojb

What we're looking to discuss is how to set up rules for a pro-touring class. There are huge advantages to run late model vehicles in this event if there's only one class.

Define late model. When is an old car not an old car anymore? It is entirely feasible to stretch a 69 Camaro over a C7 Z06, where does that run then? or you could just swap in the ABS and carbon brakes.......

I'd like to see the older muscle cars we love and build be able to compete with each other.

Me too, there should be a series for that.

The USC in OUSCI stands for Ultimate Street Car as it always has, and the O stands for Optima, not Old. The design points used to carry the older cars alot more than they used too, but even back then Danny still won in a late Corvette. Remember when average times and outstanding paint/interior could put you near the top of the overall standings. Where would Penny have finished this past weekend?

Don't get me wrong, late models are awesome parts cars and much more financially feasible, the easy button. Be honest, 40K gets you a stock, solid 69 Camaro shell and a stack of DSE parts or a C5 Z06 with coilovers, bigger wheels and tires and aero......not hard to figure out which car is faster per dollar.

So maybe the answer is not another class, but a little more weight for the custom things. Maybe more than few points should separate the guys who bolts (or pays to bolt) stuff on a latemodel vs. the guy who bleeds (or pays someone to bleed) on his car to bring the technology 30 or 40 years into the present. Pro Touring guy has to do a lot to bring his car up to par with just a stock late model, that should count for something, right?

More classes is not the answer, it never is. A slight restructure could fix 90% of the issue here. Previous ramblings aside, if you are going to run 3 classes all year, AWD, GT2, and GT3, then it really does make sense to do the same for the finale.

[SSLance]

Originally Posted by camcojb

I think you need more than tire size. You put identical sizes on any 69 Camaro you want and a newer Vette, and with similar drivers and power the Vette wins every time. There's such a difference in aero, track width, center of gravity, etc. that the older car cannot make up the difference.

Here's a good example. Take a new ZR1 and "Jackass". They have identical engines, wheels/tires/brakes. Put Mark in both cars and he'll be much faster on the track in the new ZR1.

I don't disagree...but the Vette is a two seater. Let the two seaters run with the two seaters.

I see no reason to put my car on 275s in a different class than a 1969 Camaro on 275s. And a 1985 Fox Body on 315s should be in a class with a 1967 Camaro on 315s.

Weight limits and full interior restrictions can also come into play, but most guys with muscle cars on 275s are going to be the same guys that won't cut their fenders for wider tires nor strip their interiors for weight savings.

[camcojb]

Originally Posted by SSLance

I don't disagree...but the Vette is a two seater. Let the two seaters run with the two seaters.

I see no reason to put my car on 275s in a different class than a 1969 Camaro on 275s. And a 1985 Fox Body on 315s should be in a class with a 1967 Camaro on 315s.

Weight limits and full interior restrictions can also come into play, but most guys with muscle cars on 275s are going to be the same guys that won't cut their fenders for wider tires nor strip their interiors for weight savings.

You didn't mention anything about two-seaters being a different class. But I'll give you another example...

DSE's 5th gen Camaro against their own second gen Camaro. Both Camaros, put the same size tires on both (may already be the same, not sure) and the aero, track width, and center of gravity has the 5th gen quite a bit faster on the track. I don't remember the exact times, but DSE's 5th gen was a few seconds faster than their second gen on the road course. I believe they're similar power and both very capable drivers, but the advantages to the later model car are very apparent.

[SSLance]

Originally Posted by camcojb

You didn't mention anything about two-seaters being a different class. But I'll give you another example...

DSE's 5th gen Camaro against their own second gen Camaro. Both Camaros, put the same size tires on both (may already be the same, not sure) and the aero, track width, and center of gravity has the 5th gen quite a bit faster on the track. I don't remember the exact times, but DSE's 5th gen was a few seconds faster than their second gen on the road course. I believe they're similar power and both very capable drivers, but the advantages to the later model car are very apparent.

In that example, the 5th gen is a stipped interior race car and the 2nd Gen is a full interior car race car. The 5th Gen may be a touch faster than that 2nd Gen, but it's not night and day faster like if it was paired against an older muscle car on 275s.

A driver change in either of those two Camaros will make more a difference in times ran than mods to an older car on small tires ever will.

Let me put it this way, how many of the older muscle car/PT cars that you are afraid will be run off if they can't compete...run a front tire larger than 275?