Ok Builders, I need some input... (pics)

[chicane]

Wow... I have to giggle on this one a little.

I mean... eighteen months ago you were delivered a well disguised bag of sh*t. In that eighteen months... you basically did a "Frame off" restoration, to the likes that no one has seen before and would never try to begin with... and then I hear that the game plan has changed whilst in route to it's end game ?? Oh... and don't tell me... you are also running a business and he isn't your only customer ??

And... somehow, this is your fault ??


That's comedy. You should tell him that he's lucky it has only been eighteen months with a two man crew. Especially considering what it is that you have actually accomplished.

Tell him he should check out Lateral-G.net, Pro-Touring.com and introduce himself... and then suggest that he educate himself to the logic and common sense involved with a project of this magnitude. And...

We'll take care of the rest.


Seriously. You need to make him aware that if this requires you to push some other work aside to meet his deadline of SEMA 2009... that you will need to adjust the rate at which you charge to do said work. Personally, I would adopt my theory for correcting the scale...

For example:

Normal rate: $75 an hour

You want it tomorrow: $100

You want it today: $150 an hour

You want it when !?!! : $!?!! an hour


If a client wants exclusivity... the client will have to pay the exclusivity tax.

BTW... nice work. The late model tunnel idea gets props. Kudos

[ironworks]

Originally Posted by chicane

Wow... I have to giggle on this one a little.

I mean... eighteen months ago you were delivered a well disguised bag of sh*t. In that eighteen months... you basically did a "Frame off" restoration, to the likes that no one has seen before and would never try to begin with... and then I hear that the game plan has changed whilst in route to it's end game ?? Oh... and don't tell me... you are also running a business and he isn't your only customer ??

And... somehow, this is your fault ??


That's comedy. You should tell him that he's lucky it has only been eighteen months with a two man crew. Especially considering what it is that you have actually accomplished.

Tell him he should check out Lateral-G.net, Pro-Touring.com and introduce himself... and then suggest that he educate himself to the logic and common sense involved with a project of this magnitude. And...

We'll take care of the rest.


Seriously. You need to make him aware that if this requires you to push some other work aside to meet his deadline of SEMA 2009... that you will need to adjust the rate at which you charge to do said work. Personally, I would adopt my theory for correcting the scale...

For example:

Normal rate: $75 an hour

You want it tomorrow: $100

You want it today: $150 an hour

You want it when !?!! : $!?!! an hour


If a client wants exclusivity... the client will have to pay the exclusivity tax.

BTW... nice work. The late model tunnel idea gets props. Kudos

Very Well said, sounds like a deal to me....

[J2SpeedandCustom]

Nice work!

Just out of curiosity what was or is the customers budget? What were/are his expectations for the car?

From my experience customers have "scope" creep, which means they continually think about new or different things to do. The problem with that is what you are facing right now he doesn't understand what those changes mean in time and money. Communication is key and it sounds like you both aren't on the same page. Remember it's "his" car so getting on the same page, with the same goal is paramount. Building a car is all about comprimises if he wants it done for a show, then a path needs to be laid out for him to get to that goal. He will realize once shown what the car will look like going down that path. And he may be alright with that...

[tellyv]

I'd get paid up to date and tell him to take the car elsewhere. He'll probably screw you over in the end.

[ccracin]

Originally Posted by J2SpeedandCustom

From my experience customers have "scope" creep, which means they continually think about new or different things to do. The problem with that is what you are facing right now he doesn't understand what those changes mean in time and money. Communication is key and it sounds like you both aren't on the same page. Remember it's "his" car so getting on the same page, with the same goal is paramount. Building a car is all about comprimises if he wants it done for a show, then a path needs to be laid out for him to get to that goal. He will realize once shown what the car will look like going down that path. And he may be alright with that...

[10Seconds]

Originally Posted by ccracin

I hope I don't upset folks here, but this very issue has been a subject of conversation in my group of friends lately. I somewhat disagree with the previous posters. It seems to me that there are two things that don't usually go together in this business, talented craftsmen and businessmen. This car has only been in your shop too long if it has! I know that sounds stupid. Stick with me. What did you 2 agree on originally? If it was 12 months lets say, it has been there too long. It seems written estimates and quotes are very scarce when it comes to building cars. You imply that the car was not as it was suppose to be when you dug into it. IMO you should have stopped and amended the "written" agreement at that point. If the customer felt it was too much than he has the option to stop. If you have a contract it is up to both parties to live up to it. If the customer stops paying than again you update the contract with the new ETD. After all, if this is your business than you should handle it as such. In most cases when I have read and heard about cars being in prison in a shop, there were no contracts. If there is no target then how are you going to get there? Oh, and I can't stand when I hear how many cars guys have to work on and they use that as an excuse for not meeting deadlines. How many can you do with the staff you have? If you have more than you can handle in a reasonable agreed on amount of time, then that is your fault. That is not an acceptable answer to me. I have to determine the work load for my group every time we bid a new job. I give delivery estimates based on hours available. We don't take jobs we can't deliver on. Simple. It just goes back to WHAT DID YOU GUYS AGREE ON? If the answer is it was a verbal discussion, then I would say you have a problem. I don't see a good ending for either side. I would do what you can to stay professional and get to the end. Oh and I speak from personal experience. We had a "verbal" deal to have a specific amount of work done on our truck for "X" dollars and "X" weeks. In the end it was "2X" dollars an "12X" weeks. No exaggeration. Anyway, I'll get off my soap box. It looks like you do good work, I wish you the best of luck.

Respectfully,

I agree, too often in this business things are done verbally and without proper scopes of work. Everyone needs to be better in this regard because it is important to remember that the people that can afford to just pay someone to build the car like this can also afford to hire attorneys when they feel slighted and believe me they will. I actually know a guy in that position and I talked to the guy who was suing to see if he was open to a settlement. His response: "I don't want money, I have money - I want to see that SOB broke and out on the street. I don't care what it costs."

Obviously, not everyone is like that, but having a paper trail in place can only help you in these situations.

It also does another thing - it helps manage the customers expectations. As they are constantly having to sign paperwork, it makes them stop and think about things and decide if its really important to them. Most issues like this arise out of a lack of communication. Customer wants car done by X, then decides he also needs a full cage and a 4-link rear suspension. If your answer is "no problem" or something like that, then in the customer's mind, you can still get it done on time. So making them sign something saying they understand that this is a significant change and that it will cause the project to take x days longer is going to benefit you.

Lastly, if a shop takes on too much work and a customer who is paying and current on their bills has every right to be frustrated when they stop by and see that no work has been done on their car. That situation is not their fault.

[SVPJason]

Ok... I talked to the guy that owns the car and let him know that the car wouldn't be done by the Mustang 45th anniversary on April 16, but I could have the car at the show as a "work in progress" and after a little persuasion, he agreed. But told him that the car will be done for SEMA. Which I don't see any problems with. And am actually looking forward to.


I appriciate all the suggestions and comments, some have made me think differently about how I do things...

Again thanks..

[Mick Mc]

Originally Posted by chicane

Normal rate: $75 an hour

You want it tomorrow: $100

You want it today: $150 an hour

You want it when !?!! : $!?!! an hour


If a client wants exclusivity... the client will have to pay the exclusivity tax.

BTW... nice work. The late model tunnel idea gets props. Kudos

I totally disagree with changing the shop rate to have it done faster.

The customer wil not get twice as much work for twice as much pay and you can't work twice as fast. In this case dollars does not equal speed.

If the problem is that the car is not getting worked on, thats one problem.
If the problem is that the customer can only afford 2400 a month (44k divided by 18 months) thats another problem.
If the customer is just impatient and can afford it then 65 per hour, times 40 hours per week, times four weeks per month equals the of the labor bill per month to have the car done. $10400, Can the customer afford this bill?

But which is it? Money or time?

If the customer just can't understand why it takes so long to build things
1. He can't understand HOW things take so long to build and complete.
or
2. He can't afford for you to hire more help to make the job go faster.You could be billing him $20800 per month for two guys working on the car.


It sounds like the customer can't understand why building a car takes SO MUCH TIME. If this is correct you have to ask
1. Can I make the customer understand why it takes so long to build.
2. Can I (Paul) build the car any faster? Why am I not working on the car 40 hours a week. If the customer can pay more for more hours of work and I do have more hours of work to work on the car.

It really sounds like the customer can't understand WHY it is taking so long.
Which means to me he can't understand why it takes so long for certain tasks.
This leads to client education.
Is the client getting a very detailed bill?
Is the client getting alot of pictures?
Is the client stopping by the shop weekly or monthly so you can go over the progress?

If the client just can't understand why it takes so long to weld up a panel and make alignment changes you are going to have problems in the future.
In the future I mean if he thinks it should take a couple of hours to (for instance) wire the car and it takes three or four days to complete he's going to hit the roof.

You know the customer better than we do, but
1. figure out if the client can understand how long things really take to build and complete. Is this a time issue or a budget problem or is he impatient.

2. Maybe its time to let this project go and avoid the problems that are going to get worse as the project nears completion and the dollars escalate and the visual 'look what we got done' diminishes.





Mick


Paul, good having dinner with you at SEMA, (next time not Italian) we'll have to do it again next year.

[svp]

Mick, The problem I think is that he just doesn't "get it" when it comes to what it takes. This is frustrating at a point when you explain it to him and he watches first hand what is involved yet he still just doesn't seem to get it. We have even showed him other projects online and followed the timeline where something like the build Reenmachine did took from painted to finish (reassembly) was 2 1/2 years. I don't know if he just doesn't get it or refuses to let it sink in. I allow him to come to the shop one day a week and get his hands dirty...hoping things sink in but in the end I can't think that it is anymore than just impatience....and I don't think it is intentional but maybe just the way he is. Funny thing is that I have another of his cars in the shop that he bought just getting it roadworthy and I am dying to get it out of here but he just isn't in a rush on that car(which he could be driving...granted it's just a stock Mustang).

We've been over the budget thing with him....originally he wanted a basic Shelby clone but then as was mentioned earlier started changing things. I've explained to him that you can't suddenly put Granite countertops in a house you are building and expect the cost to remain the same as Formica. The cost usually has not been an issue but once before when things were tight he suddenly started in on the cost....I sat down with him and we had a talk and he apologized and said he was that way because things were tight. Communication is key and we keep that door open all the time. I think one of the problems aside from his impatience is just the way he comes across to Jason....rule of thumb is that you don't want to annoy the guy cooking your dinner and you don't want to annoy the guy building your car....enthusiasm for the meal or build is going to be reduced if it is associated with something that annoys you. I think Jason is trying to find a nice way to ask him to just leave him alone and let him build and his asking for input here is because he wants to make sure he isn't out of line with his thinking before talking with him. There is going to be no problem having this project finished for SEMA but trying to finish it for a Mustang show next month is just unreasonable really.

and This year yes, we have to definitely get together again....we had a great time! This time I am booking a hotel that is more convenient!

[Vegas69]

Guy may be a pain in the aise but he let you rebuild that turd and spent 60k on a shell. Has to be a few cards short of a full deck. He's definitely up to his eye balls on the project. I would never get that deep into a car...ever.