One more thought on GM's downfall

[Mick Mc]

Originally Posted by ProTouring442

You know, it really gets to me when people bash American car companies for building "crap," and how this is what caused their problems because people "remember." Give it a break, that ain't it because if it were, people wouldn't be buying anything. Remember those nice 1970's and 1980's Nissans (Datsuns) that practically rusted on the showroom floor? Or the Hondas that has 2.5 hp in a car just large enough you could get a 5 year old in them? Sit inside one of those 1970's or 1980's imports and feel the quality of a dashboard constructed of polystyrene!

Now, GM, Ford, and Chrysler have built some crap, but so have all of the import manufacturers! And look at the sales numbers!

1980
Citation: 811,540
Phoenix: 179,291

1981
Escort: 320,000

1982
Escort/EXP: 483,388
Cutlass Ciera: 281,451
Lynx: 119,000
Chevette: 169,000
Mustang: 130,000

1983
Thunderbird: 122,000
Escort: 315,370
Mustang: 120,873
Fairmont LTD: 155,758

Now some of these cars had problems for sure, but no more than any other vehicle. What they did have was a news media that seems to hate American cars! As an example, I remember one news guy pushing on the urethane bumper cover on a Cadillac and commenting on how you would "never see this sort of poor quality on an import." What?!? The bumper is urethane so it WILL flex! But of course, the public believes them.

My family and I have owned a myriad of domestic cars, many of which had hundreds of thousands of miles on them before they were sold or retired. In fact, some of my best cars were purchased at the 100,000 mile mark!

Shiny Side Up!
Bill

So Bill
Everyone was building crap, you proved that, and GM has lost market share since 1980, I showed that in my graph.

Then what was GM's down fall?

I think GM has been making better quality cars since OBDII, 1996, and you have been buying domestic cars and putting thousands of miles on them.
So why was GM's market share decreasing, when we know the overall market was growing and GM even owned the finance company to get people financed?

What was GM's down fall?


Just because a news guy says something is not going to drive market share down.
Even JD Powers rates domestic cars as good quality in fit finish and reliability etc.


What was GM's down fall?



Mick

[ProTouring442]

Originally Posted by Mick Mc

So Bill
Everyone was building crap, you proved that, and GM has lost market share since 1980, I showed that in my graph.

Then what was GM's down fall?

I think GM has been making better quality cars since OBDII, 1996, and you have been buying domestic cars and putting thousands of miles on them.
So why was GM's market share decreasing, when we know the overall market was growing and GM even owned the finance company to get people financed?

What was GM's down fall?


Just because a news guy says something is not going to drive market share down.
Even JD Powers rates domestic cars as good quality in fit finish and reliability etc.


What was GM's down fall?



Mick

The market share argument looks good on the surface, but upon closer inspection it falls apart. In 1960 you had the following market in the US:

GM
Cadillac
Buick
Oldsmobile
Pontiac
Chevrolet
GMC

Ford
Lincoln
Mercury
Edsel
Ford

Crhrysler
Imperial
Chrysler
DeSoto
Dodge
Plymouth

Other
Rambler
Studebaker
Metropolitan
Checker

Imports
Volkswagen
Mercedes Benz
Porsche
Triumph
MG
Jaguar

Today you have:

GM
Cadillac
Hummer
Buick
Pontiac
Chevrolet
Saturn
GMC

Ford
Lincoln
Mercury
Ford

Chrysler
Chrysler
Dodge
Jeep

Toyota
Lexus
Toyota
Scion

Nissan
Infinity
Nissan

Honda
Acura
Honda

Other American
None

Other Import
BMW
Mercedes Benz
Mini
Jaguar
Mazda
Kia
Hyundai
Audi
Volvo
Saab
Land Rover
Porsche
Subaru

While a few of these are niche vehicles, we still have quite a few more mainstream manufacturers in the marketplace, and thus a smaller marketshare.

The media is certainly part of the problem as they have a history of covering the American auto industry with a definite bias. Examples? The Pinto which, as it turns out, had just about the same rate of people dieing in fires as pretty much any other car. So why did we get so many stories about the Pinto back in the 70's? Then there are the GM pickups that "burst into flames." Only they didn't, and so the media faked it. Of course there was the Corvair...

Now, couple the above with the fact that only the "Big Three" has had to contend with the persistent and onerous Auto Unions and their increasingly unrealistic contracts, the US Automakers found themselves in an untenable position.

Could GM have fought these contracts? Sure, but to what end? The media nearly always sided with the unions when it came to their coverage so the negative press was massive, and the losses sustained in attempting to counter the unions was phenomenal. In one two month strike in the early 70's GM lost over 40 BILLION in sales revenue!

So what killed GM? See the above! These factors helped create a situation wherein the profit per car was simply too small. Think about it, in 1957 Oldsmobile managed to be profitable selling only 384,000 cars while in 1995 their fate was being sealed by a lack of profit, while selling 372,000 cars. Worse, there is a greater number of shared components in the 1995 cars which should have lead to increased profitability.

Shiny Side Up!
Bill

[lawbreaker2]

Never had a Import and never will. I have always had a chevy or GMC or ford truck, right now I have a 1999 ford f150 with 175,000 miles and run like a champ and a 2000 f250 diesel with 166,000 miles and a 01 pt cruzer with 52,000 and never had problems with them infact when I traded my 91 chevy blazer in for a ford ranger it had 320,000 miles on it. But I don't trade my stuff in in 2 years either, I drive it till it's about to fall apart.

[lawbreaker2]

Oh and the wife want either a new mustang shelby or a challenger srt this year. Yes!!!!!!

[tones2SS]

Originally Posted by lawbreaker2

Oh and the wife want either a new mustang shelby or a challenger srt this year. Yes!!!!!!

VERY NICE!!! Go with the Challenger SRT. Great deals on those right now!!
Me and my family will not drive anything but American cars.
I get really annoyed when people say that because they bought a foreign car, that had nothing to do with GM/Chrysler going bankrupt. WHHAAATT?!?!
Of course it does!! It's not the whole reason I know, but PART of the reason. Just my opinion and I'm sticking to it!! lol

[70rs]

I have owned imports and domestic cars both. I have had equal reliability with both and really can't remember either being better or worse other than some paint issues with GMs and Fords from the 80sand early 90s.

I do prefer GM trucks and for the last 8-10 years that is all I have had for daily drivers. I also worked construction so a truck was needed regardless of fuel economy. A half ton Toyota or Nissan is NOT the same as a half ton GM or Ford. I have a 2000 Chev 4x4 ext cab Z-71 now. Bought it with 96k on it, it now has 160k and I have only had to do the rear brakes and a tune up.
I do not think quality is the reason for loosing market share. The market is flooded with auto makers so there is a smaller piece of the pie to be had for all of them.

At this point with half ton trucks pushing the 50k mark (loaded) it is just not something I or a lot of people can afford.
I buy my vehicles used. I buy them (try to anyway) one or two years old still under warantee. It saves me THOUSANDS and I still get the vehicle I want but at a payment I can afford.
I think all of the auto makers (including foriegn) have priced too many consumers out of thier products. I think this is due to MANY factors. Union wages , retirement packages, insurance costs, raw materials costs, energy costs, advertising costs and everything on down the line to toilet paper in the restrooms. I don't blame the auto makers for this. It is a global problem with eveyone wanting to make an extra buck no matter what they sell or service they provide.
For the record, I do not have any problem with the wage any person earns. If you can get that job more power to you.
Just my .02, thanks for reading my ramble.