Art Morrison vs Detroit Speed.

[jcal87]

Not yet mark i have actaully been out of town on military orders to dallas fort worth for the last couple weeks.I havent had much time to look into but i have pretty much decided to go with art morrison due to price and stock corvette parts. but now that GM has gone bankrupt even that worries me.

[tyoneal]

To All:

Since two major after market sub frame choices have been discussed for him, can anyone with a stock subframe with Global West, UCA and LCA (I have been told that they were the best Control Arms on the Markets as far as Having the best characteristics built into them, for improved handling on a first generation F-Body), Stock Spindles, Bump steer adjusters, ATS Steering Box (The best Steering box), Hotchkis Front Sway Bar (Another one of the Better Item made), and the Wilwood 6 Piston 13 inch Brakes (Best Bang for the Buck for High Performing Brake Kits), Varishock/Penske or other good quality front shocks.

Also, what exactly is needed to be done to the stock sub frame to optimize it's performance. (Specify)

This option would be the least expensive choice of the three and possibly have only a negligible performance difference with the other two, one reason being that all the major parts hanging on the subframe are top quality.

Other than 20 mm or so tire width difference (Slightly greater than the width of two 9mm bullets) in which the tire will not rub against the body, frame, or steering components and still retain all of it's turning ability, and about 40 pounds or so of extra weight. (About two pizzas and 3 six packs a month) what do you really accomplish with an after market subframe? (Other than lightening your wallet a couple grand?)

The, "One Lap Camaro", from what I understand did a bang up job with a "Stock" subframe underneath it.

What is the real skinny on reason's NOT to go ahead and use the original Subframes other than what I have mentioned above. Surely a bit of weight, and an inch of tire isn't all there is between them other than looks?

Thanks,

Ty

[Mkelcy]

Originally Posted by tyoneal

To All:

Since two major after market sub frame choices have been discussed for him, can anyone with a stock subframe with Global West, UCA and LCA (I have been told that they were the best Control Arms on the Markets as far as Having the best characteristics built into them, for improved handling on a first generation F-Body), Stock Spindles, Bump steer adjusters, ATS Steering Box (The best Steering box), Hotchkis Front Sway Bar (Another one of the Better Item made), and the Wilwood 6 Piston 13 inch Brakes (Best Bang for the Buck for High Performing Brake Kits), Varishock/Penske or other good quality front shocks.

Also, what exactly is needed to be done to the stock sub frame to optimize it's performance. (Specify)

This option would be the least expensive choice of the three and possibly have only a negligible performance difference with the other two, one reason being that all the major parts hanging on the subframe are top quality.

Other than 20 mm or so tire width difference (Slightly greater than the width of two 9mm bullets) in which the tire will not rub against the body, frame, or steering components and still retain all of it's turning ability, and about 40 pounds or so of extra weight. (About two pizzas and 3 six packs a month) what do you really accomplish with an after market subframe? (Other than lightening your wallet a couple grand?)

The, "One Lap Camaro", from what I understand did a bang up job with a "Stock" subframe underneath it.

What is the real skinny on reason's NOT to go ahead and use the original Subframes other than what I have mentioned above. Surely a bit of weight, and an inch of tire isn't all there is between them other than looks?

Thanks,

Ty

While I'm not sure I agree with your "best" parts list, until James and Steve agree that, say, David Pozzi can run the One Lap Camaro and Bad Penny on the same track, back to back, we'll not have a very good answer.

One Lap - Stock subframe, rewelded, ATS coil-over set up, tubular control arms, ATS spindles, ATS steering box, Baer Trackers and ATS splined sway bar.

Bad Penny - 21st Century Street Machine subframe using coilovers, C5 control arms, uprights and hubs, AGR rack and pinion and a splined swaybar.

Both have LSx engines putting out well north of 500hp, both use T56's and the Lateral Dynamics 3 Link rear suspension. (That list tells you something doesn't it?) So far as I can determine, the only material difference (other than the obvious subframe difference) between the two is that Penny (I think) carries wider front wheels and tires.

[GregWeld]

I see the "preference vote" is 39 AME to 33 for DSE...

It would be fun to see if this vote is split along "east" and "west" addresses for the voters?

It's a hypothetical question - but would be interesting to see if there is a difference of opinion based on location and 'familiarity'.

[David Pozzi]

There is surprisingly little difference between driving Penny and the One Lap Camaro. Penny has a slight advantage due to wider front tires and less overall weight, - and less front weight, but it's more due to those items than subframe construction or other factors. They are more alike than you could imagine. The low tie rod end spacers needed to bumpsteer the ATS spindles are limiting the front rim width for OLC to a 255 tire,. I'm sure there is a solution to it, but for now there are more pressing items on the "list" to fix. Both cars are not fully developed yet, but the biggest issues are solved and we are making progress.

Some of the differences are more in the ease of adjusting a coil over or header or engine clearance. The front rack subs have easier access to the tie rod adjusters, rear steer cars are harder to reach, but I just loosen the tie rod sleeves before setting the car on the turntables, then raise the car to lock them down. I recently did a rough alignment on a DSE sub and really like how it looks under the car. The shock adjusters were a bit tight to get to but not too bad. The sway bar arms are closer to the coilovers which are more inboard and vertical on the A arm than other subs, not a big problem but just different. I like how they tied the rack mounts into the sway bar crossmember. The OLC has more scrub radius by quite a bit, but honestly it barely showed up when I drove it down a familiar bumpy section of road near my house. DSE sub adjusts with shims like a stock sub, their A arms come with delrin bushings which are going to give better control of the suspension than the stock corvette rubber. I don't know if Morrison has upgrades for the A arm bushings. The Corvette bushings are very soft and you wouldn't notice they were causing a cornering loss unles you swapped in better stuff. What I'm trying to say is, most people wouldn't notice the stock Corvette rubber a arm bushings were a problem and wouldn't need to upgrade them, but those who open track or autocross a lot should consider it.

The Lateral Dynamics rear suspension is about as good as it gets for a stick axle car. Super stability and less unsprung weight helps keep the wheels on the ground when you hit bumps. I'm sure the torque arm and DSE rear suspensions are good too.

If you are re-working a stock sub yourself, you might save money over an aftermarket sub.
If you are paying someone to do it, an aftermarket sub is probably very close in cost to a reworked stock sub.
David

[tyoneal]

Originally Posted by Mkelcy

While I'm not sure I agree with your "best" parts list, until James and Steve agree that, say, David Pozzi can run the One Lap Camaro and Bad Penny on the same track, back to back, we'll not have a very good answer.

One Lap - Stock subframe, rewelded, ATS coil-over set up, tubular control arms, ATS spindles, ATS steering box, Baer Trackers and ATS splined sway bar.

Bad Penny - 21st Century Street Machine subframe using coilovers, C5 control arms, uprights and hubs, AGR rack and pinion and a splined swaybar.

Both have LSx engines putting out well north of 500hp, both use T56's and the Lateral Dynamics 3 Link rear suspension. (That list tells you something doesn't it?) So far as I can determine, the only material difference (other than the obvious subframe difference) between the two is that Penny (I think) carries wider front wheels and tires.

==============================
My car has a LS3 (600 hp, not in yet), Tremec 5 Speed, LD 3-Link, Penske Shocks DA Front, Spax Shocks DA rear, ATS Coil Over set up, ATS Steering Box, the ATS Spindles won't work with the wheels because I want to Run Mini-Lites, 6 Pot Wilwood, 13 inch Two Piece Rotors, Sway Bar by Hotchkis. Full Cage.

Hopefully this will help with the comparison. While not exactly the same, most major parts are.

Thanks,

Ty

[tyoneal]

Originally Posted by David Pozzi

There is surprisingly little difference between driving Penny and the One Lap Camaro. Penny has a slight advantage due to wider front tires and less overall weight, - and less front weight, but it's more due to those items than subframe construction or other factors. They are more alike than you could imagine. The low tie rod end spacers needed to bumpsteer the ATS spindles are limiting the front rim width for OLC to a 255 tire,. I'm sure there is a solution to it, but for now there are more pressing items on the "list" to fix. Both cars are not fully developed yet, but the biggest issues are solved and we are making progress.

Some of the differences are more in the ease of adjusting a coil over or header or engine clearance. The front rack subs have easier access to the tie rod adjusters, rear steer cars are harder to reach, but I just loosen the tie rod sleeves before setting the car on the turntables, then raise the car to lock them down. I recently did a rough alignment on a DSE sub and really like how it looks under the car. The shock adjusters were a bit tight to get to but not too bad. The sway bar arms are closer to the coilovers which are more inboard and vertical on the A arm than other subs, not a big problem but just different. I like how they tied the rack mounts into the sway bar crossmember. The OLC has more scrub radius by quite a bit, but honestly it barely showed up when I drove it down a familiar bumpy section of road near my house. DSE sub adjusts with shims like a stock sub, their A arms come with delrin bushings which are going to give better control of the suspension than the stock corvette rubber. I don't know if Morrison has upgrades for the A arm bushings. The Corvette bushings are very soft and you wouldn't notice they were causing a cornering loss unles you swapped in better stuff. What I'm trying to say is, most people wouldn't notice the stock Corvette rubber a arm bushings were a problem and wouldn't need to upgrade them, but those who open track or autocross a lot should consider it.

The Lateral Dynamics rear suspension is about as good as it gets for a stick axle car. Super stability and less unsprung weight helps keep the wheels on the ground when you hit bumps. I'm sure the torque arm and DSE rear suspensions are good too.

If you are re-working a stock sub yourself, you might save money.
If you are paying someone to do it, an aftermarket sub is probably very close in cost to a reworked stock sub.
David

David:

Many Thanks for your input.

Sincerely,

Ty O'Neal

[customcam]

Great input David,Thanks

[ArisESQ]

I would probably go with the AME simply because it utilizes off the shelf GM parts that can be purchased from a dealership, and maybe even a pick and pull yard... and i think it looks cooler.

HOWEVER

DSE has some of the best customer service I've experienced, and their business is based almost solely on pro-touring cars alone. They really do know the product base inside and out (not that AME doesn't, but they have a lot going on).

[Stuart Adams]

DSE has averaged one subframe sale per day since available. That is just their numbers, that means pro touring is alive and doing well.