With more PT cars being tracked is it changing PT vendors product offerings?

[rogue]

And hey, nothings wrong with a prius. They good good MPG like the LSX

k I'm done stewing the pot, I don't want to get punched in the face at el toro if I make it down.

[70rs]

Originally Posted by rogue

And hey, nothings wrong with a prius. They good good MPG like the LSX

k I'm done stewing the pot, I don't want to get punched in the face at el toro if I make it down.

It's all good Dane. Having input from everyone is what this forum is all about right? I know I appreciate everyones input even if it goes against my own opinion. Most of us are very open minded here and appreciate others advice and opinions.
I know I have A LOT to learn and discussions like these offer me a ton of great info.

[NOT A TA]

I lurk here a lot reading threads like this and rarely speak up. Danes been way out on a limb by himself lately so I figure nows a good time to chime in. Just may end up wishing wishing I had a fire suit!

During a conversation with Johnny Hunkins while he was shoting my car for PHR back in '05 he recommended I join the LATERAL-G forum. He explained that this is where guys with cars like mine that were used on track would be. You know.....G machines. He was wrong.... Hardly any of the forum members cars were used on track at that time and although there was always talk about getting cars on track and building cars that would eventually be used on track the reality was that hardly anyone had actually driven their cars (at speed) on a full size road race track. Yes there were a couple but very very few and most of those were owned by companies not individuals. Heck, most of the cars owned by forum members didn't even run! So I wondered, "Where's the LATERAL-G content?"

It's several years later now, and there are more cars being used on track but in comparison to the number of members on the forum the percentage of those who actually use their car on full size tracks is still very small. I stopped inviting people from forums to road track days because no one has ever showed up. In the past 6 years there was only one track day I went to where any other PT/G-machine type cars showed up. I put 2 wheels off twice last year and 4 wheels off once, how many members even had their car on a track? Nevermind pushing the limits! Not very many.


I have to applaud people like Bill Howell for getting more people to take their cars out and actually drive them in some type of event. Without the leadership, time, and money invested by people like Bill we wouldn't have the rising popularity of the events geared toward the PT/G-machine crowd. This is a good thing and I've been hoping it'll get some people to step up and bring their cars out to track days. It would be fun to run with a bunch of 60's and 70's style cars instead of the typical modern cars I run with at track days.

If someone here owns a Prius but has never been on a full size track, take the Prius! You'll learn how to stay on "the line" better, and more quickly than with a huge horsepower car. Danes probably right, a Miata with a good driver could spank most of the car/driver forum members on most road tracks. I'll be the first to admit more than a few passed me when I started! (now only occasionally! LOL) If you take the Prius it'll really get you to want to bring your PT/G-machine out there!

You don't NEED big power, or NEED big brakes, or NEED huge rubber, or NEED less weight, or NEED the latest trick suspension, to get out on track. The simple truth is that a stock ordinary car is better than most people are on track until they get some instruction and track time. Got a sporty daily driver? Take the next 500 bucks you were going to spend on your project car and use it to go to a HPDE event weekend at a road track. You'll have a blast and come away a much better driver!

I rented a 4 dr 4 cylinder Cobalt with an automatic and ran it at Road Atlanta one weekend. I learned a lot driving what would be considered a "momentum" car and by the end of the weekend I could drive almost the whole track with the pedal to the floor lifting only 5 times each lap. And yes they do have a speed limiter, it's at 99 MPH! The next time I took my Firebird I was smoother on the track.

This forum along with similar forums seem to be becoming more and more about what "looks" like a car that can perform on track, rather than cars that are actually going to be used on track. There's more chatter about car shows and stance than track days and what tires work best.

As for the OPs question about vendors changing products because more cars are tracked, it doesn't appear that way to me. To me, it appears like most new products are more for looks than function. When was the last time a wheel manufacturer came out with new wheels and announced the reduced weight or increased strength to enhance performance as selling features? Lots of the billet parts sold weigh more than the stuff they're being used to replace, but they do look cool! LOL (anyone running my billet centercaps can take them off on track. LOL). Since the majority of cars don't get used on track there's really no reason for vendors to sell products that are more track oriented. There's just not many people using parts for those purposes. As long as they "look" like they would be good on track and seem to increase the "seat of the pants" feel, they'll sell.

While I'm on a soapbox talking about track days let me remind everyone that taking a PT G-machine type car to the track regularly costs money. I don't want to deter anyone, but many people don't think about it when they're building their "dream" car. The reality of how much expense is involved sets in quick once you start going to tracks. Sure you know there's an entry fee and ya there's maybe some travel costs involved and possibly a hotel but the little things add up just like when you're doing a project. I kept track of the expenses for a couple years and it averages about a thousand dollars a day for me which included tracks where I drove the car to and from the track while eating/sleeping at home as well as tracks I trailered to, stayed in hotels, and ate out. I know there's folks who will say "I could do it cheaper than that" however I'm just saying, "Thats what it cost me" in additional expenses over a period of time. Pad wear, tire wear, rotor wear, fluid swaps, trailer maintenance, race gas, parking expenses, tolls, and on and on all add up. And I didn't include things like helmets that get outdated or harnesses that get outdated and won't pass tech after a couple years. If you aren't willing to spend a grand a day and also realize you may ball the car up and total it with (probably) no insurance coverage, you shouldn't think about building your car for track use, just build a cool street car and if you go to an entry level event or two it'll be fine. Try to be honest with yourself about what the car is really going to be used for before you get in deep building a car for track use that may never see a track. Cages/bars harnesses etc. are a pain on the street and if you don't really need them for track use they're not worth the hassle and expense. Most entry level HPDEs don't require anything more than a normal car has, other than a helmet. Convertibles require a roll bar.

Auto-X is cool (yes, I've done it). But the short courses seem better suited to little cars without huge power, and again, driver technique trumphs sophisticated cars with inexperienced drivers. If you've got a big power car it needs room to stretch its legs! Take it to a big track!

The original question in this thread was about whether more cars being tracked has changed PT vendors offerings. I don't really see it. If you look at the list of site sponsors on the left you can see what forum members are most likely spending their money on. If there were a lot of track guys here there'd be data aquisition companies, Lap Timers, race car products companies, Fire & Safety equipment companies etc. listed, but its mostly drivetrain, suspension, brakes, appearance, and comfort equipment oriented companies advertising.

[rogue]

Apparently my comments are hitting way too close to home for some, yet I have 6 PMs from members glad I'm saying what I'm saying.

I'm not even going to respond to Monza's post. He apparently has taken my comments very personal, even though I have never once interacted with the guy and I love his car. Pictures of it are even kept in my "Camaro Inspiration" album I keep.

I'll just shut up.

[Flash68]

Originally Posted by rogue

Pictures of it are even kept in my "Camaro Inspiration" album I keep.

Funny. I have a folder on my laptop with that exact title.

[monza]

Not A TA

Agreed, no need for a flame suit, great points. When I can't take my PT car to the track and I have a track day I take what ever junk I have around. Normally a Corvair, I used to think it was good on the track ha ha. It is fun however and it is seat time.

More people should track their cars its fun but yes spendy. This is not really a track site more like a cross over, car and track? Pro- Touring does not have to be about the track. Just getting it so it can track is the battle then ya can so you should...then it breaks...

[monza]

Rogue
You just beat me on the PM count glad I'm saying what I'm saying.You miss my point totally. I have taken nothing personal. Sorry I said shat.

Now I'll just shut up.

[fleetus macmullitz]

To Not A TA...

John, that's excellent info.

Thanks for taking the time to post it.

[rogue]

Originally Posted by NOT A TA

I lurk here a lot reading threads like this and rarely speak up. Danes been way out on a limb by himself lately so I figure nows a good time to chime in. Just may end up wishing wishing I had a fire suit!

During a conversation with Johnny Hunkins while he was shoting my car for PHR back in '05 he recommended I join the LATERAL-G forum. He explained that this is where guys with cars like mine that were used on track would be. You know.....G machines. He was wrong.... Hardly any of the forum members cars were used on track at that time and although there was always talk about getting cars on track and building cars that would eventually be used on track the reality was that hardly anyone had actually driven their cars (at speed) on a full size road race track. Yes there were a couple but very very few and most of those were owned by companies not individuals. Heck, most of the cars owned by forum members didn't even run! So I wondered, "Where's the LATERAL-G content?"

It's several years later now, and there are more cars being used on track but in comparison to the number of members on the forum the percentage of those who actually use their car on full size tracks is still very small. I stopped inviting people from forums to road track days because no one has ever showed up. In the past 6 years there was only one track day I went to where any other PT/G-machine type cars showed up. I put 2 wheels off twice last year and 4 wheels off once, how many members even had their car on a track? Nevermind pushing the limits! Not very many.


I have to applaud people like Bill Howell for getting more people to take their cars out and actually drive them in some type of event. Without the leadership, time, and money invested by people like Bill we wouldn't have the rising popularity of the events geared toward the PT/G-machine crowd. This is a good thing and I've been hoping it'll get some people to step up and bring their cars out to track days. It would be fun to run with a bunch of 60's and 70's style cars instead of the typical modern cars I run with at track days.

If someone here owns a Prius but has never been on a full size track, take the Prius! You'll learn how to stay on "the line" better, and more quickly than with a huge horsepower car. Danes probably right, a Miata with a good driver could spank most of the car/driver forum members on most road tracks. I'll be the first to admit more than a few passed me when I started! (now only occasionally! LOL) If you take the Prius it'll really get you to want to bring your PT/G-machine out there!

You don't NEED big power, or NEED big brakes, or NEED huge rubber, or NEED less weight, or NEED the latest trick suspension, to get out on track. The simple truth is that a stock ordinary car is better than most people are on track until they get some instruction and track time. Got a sporty daily driver? Take the next 500 bucks you were going to spend on your project car and use it to go to a HPDE event weekend at a road track. You'll have a blast and come away a much better driver!

I rented a 4 dr 4 cylinder Cobalt with an automatic and ran it at Road Atlanta one weekend. I learned a lot driving what would be considered a "momentum" car and by the end of the weekend I could drive almost the whole track with the pedal to the floor lifting only 5 times each lap. And yes they do have a speed limiter, it's at 99 MPH! The next time I took my Firebird I was smoother on the track.

This forum along with similar forums seem to be becoming more and more about what "looks" like a car that can perform on track, rather than cars that are actually going to be used on track. There's more chatter about car shows and stance than track days and what tires work best.

John you word this all better than me. I come across as combative and aggressive and I'm the same way in person. Some people I rub the wrong way I guess. I guess its the competitor in me. I hate seeing all these amazing cars not being driven like they were built for.

I feel the same way at pebble beach and any cruise night as well. All these beautiful cars we rarely see that get polished monthly, rubbed with a diaper, and brought to a cruise night and driven 35mph the entire time.

I just want to see the cars driven, and the smiles of the owners after.

Some people collect, some build, some drive. We're all here for the same thing and I don't intend to offend anyone beyond a little garage ribbing and giving someone a hard time. I do it in person as well, and its not meant to offend.

I too am done inviting pro-touring and latg members to events. I'm real bummed I'm still laid out from surgery right now because I'd like to go down to El Toro just to shake some hands and enjoy the fun. I even asked Dick Guldstrand to drive the car for me, but he is dealing with family health issues. That would have been an absolute hoot.

Pozzi vs. Guldstrand sure would be a hoot for us all.

The wilwood issues on my car are sorted out today, but I'm not feeling up to driving just quite yet. I'd love to drive down, but I think its just foolish and would likely cause me more harm than good. I need to recover.

Again, hope I don't offend anyone by my opinions, and I know I can come across as an asshole. I can do so in person as well, but I always have a smile on my face and its all in good fun.

Just ribbing amongst car folks.