FAST XFI tuning question

[TurboNova]

Originally Posted by GregWeld

For about $900 you can ditch the Dual Sync distributor or cam signal altogether... by going to the Multiport EZ-EFI kit. That's what I'm doing.

Of course, that will be batch fired - but sequential is all about emissions over power or drivability.

As soon as my motor is done - I'll post up some engine dyno time from start up of this system to final. It should be interesting given the 8 stack EFI I'm running.

The XFI has a bunch of better features than the EZ setup. I do however like the EZ EFI, we were playing with it last time I was at comp/fast on the engine dyno.

bank to bank is good and I have run my race car on bank for the first 4 years. It worked fine although I did find that now running sequential it idles much better, spools faster and will 60' much faster than before. So it did pick up some bottom end power.

Little things, now in a stack injection (you are a fan of) sequential is almost necessary unless you are really running a small cam with very good vac. I have found that having the individual cylinder trims with this really helps. If you are running something like a 6 speed, big cam and stack injection then you really have to run sequential or you will find one or two stacks always popping.

I wouldn't at all say that sequential isn't about power or drivability because it is also.

[wedged]

Originally Posted by TurboNova

With no cam sync, the engine does not know where #1 is so every time you start the engine it will look for a signal for #1 and may not quite get the firing order correct.

So it actually does not revert to batch fire, it's just not properly sequenced. That is what I thought when I set it up originally. I figured since batch firing is not really timed to valve events, what harm could there be in a random sequential ? As a reminder, my thinking was to have less of a pressure spike in the rails. When I first built this set up, I installed magnets in the damper and made my own trigger bracket with a mini pick up that is the same as the MSD mini. The magnets I used were too small and would loose too much strength when they got up to engine temp. This would cause it to loose the crank signal and misfire. It took me a little while to figure out what was happening. Luckily, I was still testing my crank trigger set up and had not yet modified the distributor to be the cam signal. I simply changed the connector over to the distributor. At some point, I will fix my crank trigger and set it all up properly.


edit:
Brian, you have helped me before on the EFI101 site. Thanks !


I'd really like to see a data base of various EFI tune files with engine specs. I'd be happy to share mine (and take the heat about how crappy they are).

[TurboNova]

Originally Posted by wedged

So it actually does not revert to batch fire, it's just not properly sequenced. That is what I thought when I set it up originally. I figured since batch firing is not really timed to valve events, what harm could there be in a random sequential ? As a reminder, my thinking was to have less of a pressure spike in the rails. When I first built this set up, I installed magnets in the damper and made my own trigger bracket with a mini pick up that is the same as the MSD mini. The magnets I used were too small and would loose too much strength when they got up to engine temp. This would cause it to loose the crank signal and misfire. It took me a little while to figure out what was happening. Luckily, I was still testing my crank trigger set up and had not yet modified the distributor to be the cam signal. I simply changed the connector over to the distributor. At some point, I will fix my crank trigger and set it all up properly.


edit:
Brian, you have helped me before on the EFI101 site. Thanks !


I'd really like to see a data base of various EFI tune files with engine specs. I'd be happy to share mine (and take the heat about how crappy they are).

Getting people to post their tune file in a database is a good idea, however most think this is some black magic stuff and they are the only ones that can do it. It's very hard to change that kind of thinking.

The way you have your engine setup, you have to add more fuel than you would have to in order to get it to run good. In bank to bank mode the ECU will fire four injectors every 90 degrees of crankshaft rotation. In sequential it cuts down the firing and only fires one injector per ignition event. To get this to run without a cam sync you would have to really richen up the tune to get fuel left over at the valve to when it opened it would run smooth.

What about the new Fast crank trigger? It is only 1/16 thick and hall effect.

[GregWeld]

Originally Posted by TurboNova

The XFI has a bunch of better features than the EZ setup. I do however like the EZ EFI, we were playing with it last time I was at comp/fast on the engine dyno.

bank to bank is good and I have run my race car on bank for the first 4 years. It worked fine although I did find that now running sequential it idles much better, spools faster and will 60' much faster than before. So it did pick up some bottom end power.

Little things, now in a stack injection (you are a fan of) sequential is almost necessary unless you are really running a small cam with very good vac. I have found that having the individual cylinder trims with this really helps. If you are running something like a 6 speed, big cam and stack injection then you really have to run sequential or you will find one or two stacks always popping.

I wouldn't at all say that sequential isn't about power or drivability because it is also.

Good info Brian. Thanks! Funny... Dan Peterson and I were just discussing this very thing yesterday... ie., the 'popping'... and I know you and I were trying to find this when you were tuning Pierre's BBC at your shop.

So here's the big EZ EFI question from me (and I'm NOT getting rid of the Accel until I see how this pig runs on the engine dyno). I know the ECM asks if you're running IR... but without a cam signal it's got to run in batch? So with no common plenum - and it's firing in bank to bank (batch) how's that going to work when you have IR? Obviously it works because Inglese is selling this "system" so it must be "okay".

When you say BIG CAM -- what's big (since you're RACER BOY -- LOL)? I'm thinking we're going to run this Comp custom grind as recommended by them.

230/238 .576/.576 (1.6) on a 109.

The part number would be 12-000-8 and the grind number would be CS
3016S/3475S HR109+2

Building a "406" - Dart Pro 1 200cc heads - Honda crank journal - Mahle piston - 6" rod - Dart Little M - 4.155 bore - 3.750 stroke.

PS -- I understand Sequential firing truly making a better EFI system - but this thread is about EZ EFI -- and we know we can't run that way with the EZ EFI ECM -- so it's more about in comparison to a carburetor as far as drivability and fuel milage and "ease" of conversion that I make that "statement".

[GregWeld]

I mis-spoke - this thread is not the EZ EFI thread I mentioned -- forgot where I was!!!

Sorry -- I might even be jacking the thread -- so I apologize for that!

[TurboNova]

Originally Posted by GregWeld

Good info Brian. Thanks! Funny... Dan Peterson and I were just discussing this very thing yesterday... ie., the 'popping'... and I know you and I were trying to find this when you were tuning Pierre's BBC at your shop.

So here's the big EZ EFI question from me (and I'm NOT getting rid of the Accel until I see how this pig runs on the engine dyno). I know the ECM asks if you're running IR... but without a cam signal it's got to run in batch? So with no common plenum - and it's firing in bank to bank (batch) how's that going to work when you have IR? Obviously it works because Inglese is selling this "system" so it must be "okay".

Did you actually say this? hahah just because someone sells something does not mean it actually works. Especially in the EFI world, people try to compare things like a holley comander 950 to a Fast or Accel. It isn't even in the same product range, does it work for what it is meant for... yes.

Bank to bank is only what the EZ system will do, it has no provision for a cam sync. It is supposed to be a budget system for no tuning and 500hp and under. We will see how well it works on a IR system other than the Inglese.... I will be suprised if it does.

I believe the Inglese is a common plenum built into the bottom of the intake or more than the kinsler or hilborn is. Not sure on this but we looked at one at Comp, I will check it out closer in May.

When you say BIG CAM -- what's big (since you're RACER BOY -- LOL)? I'm thinking we're going to run this Comp custom grind as recommended by them.

230/238 .576/.576 (1.6) on a 109.

The part number would be 12-000-8 and the grind number would be CS
3016S/3475S HR109+2

Building a "406" - Dart Pro 1 200cc heads - Honda crank journal - Mahle piston - 6" rod - Dart Little M - 4.155 bore - 3.750 stroke.

PS -- I understand Sequential firing truly making a better EFI system - but this thread is about EZ EFI -- and we know we can't run that way with the EZ EFI ECM -- so it's more about in comparison to a carburetor as far as drivability and fuel milage and "ease" of conversion that I make that "statement".

I would only be worried about the 109 lobe sep but the duration isn't too big so it should work good. The key to the IR and EFI is a cam that provides good vac because you are trying to run a style of intake that is meant for drag racing, really. You end up getting enough air for full power long before your throttle angle is large enough for full throttle.

I really do like the EZ EFI system, we have done a couple and were at comp when they did some testing on it. For what it is meant for you can't beat it.
Way better than a carb!!

Pierre's car worked out well, a car that had the right cam/intake combo.

Usually it isn't that way and someone brings up a large cam, no vac, IR intake and a 6 speed. Try to get that to work on anything other than sequential. Fuel needs change depending on what gear you are in and the tuning window is small. Balancing the air going into the intake goes a long way to fixing the popping.

[GregWeld]

Maybe I should push that out to 112* ??

I need vacuum for the MAP and the fuel pressure reg....

Thanks!

[TurboNova]

yeah, 112 would be better.

[GregWeld]

Brian -- Maybe I need to contact Brian Reese and see about that Inglese intake because that would make a HUGE difference if it's running a common plenum!

They're "selling it" as a IR and I suppose "technically" that might be half true... with IR blades but it's not really if it has a common plenum for batch firing.

THAT really bothers me now! Do you have any "ins" with someone that I can check with?? Their website is the absolute WORST in the industry!

[TurboNova]

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