Shooting in Connecticut

[WSSix]

Originally Posted by GregWeld

I'm not sure if staffing every school door with an armed guard would end all school attacks - but it would probably help. My sense is though - that the attack would simply occur somewhere else. I just find it hard to believe in my heart of hearts that we can protect everyone everywhere with more laws and more guns. Should we have an armed guard on every bus? At every mall entrance - at every movie entrance...

That's exactly why I think people need to have it instilled in them that their life is in their hands and fighting for it is perfectly fine. Otherwise, we're headed for a police state that won't be any safer.

[Vince@Meanstreets]

Originally Posted by GregWeld

In the class I took on Saturday -- we discussed the "Nike defense" -- as in -- even if you're armed -- run -- The "preclusion rule" says to stay out of the fight if at all possible.

Of course - we weren't discussing a shooting at a school and nobody in their right mind wouldn't try to prevent that "somehow".

Correct, back down, take cover, regroup and assess the risk. Hate to shoot a potential hero with a legal conceal carry license or an off duty.

[WSSix]

Originally Posted by Vince@MSperfab

Who is to say they didn't fight back or try Trey? Most of the witnesses are most likely dead. It would take co ordination and good training to take a weapon from an unstable person.
The first thing they tell you in an armed situation is to stay calm and quiet or try to reason if confronted. Hero's get killed or get others in real life.
These are common citizens, teachers, librarians not hardened combat tested warriors. Most will panic at the sight of a gun.

Again, I'm not referring to this instance explicitly. Reasoning with a person who clearly has massacre on their mind, as evidenced by these random attackers just simply starting to shoot people as compared to using a gun as a tool to have power over you to rob you, went out the window when the gun started firing. You're no longer being reasonable to believe you can reason with that person.

Flight 93 is a perfect example of the point I'm trying to make. Those people knew they were probably going to die regardless of whatever the terrorist told them, which I have no idea what they were told. Instead of sitting there with the attitude of someone will save us, they got up and did something. Maybe they would have been triumphant. Maybe they would have all died no matter what they did. The difference is they tried and fought for the one thing they could not lose. I don't see the whole of society having that same attitude and I think it's actually being discouraged and punished in many respects. I believe that's wrong.

[Vegas69]

The major difference I see is that an Elementary school is a sitting duck in our society. 600 kids, 60-100 staff(mostly women) that have absolutely 0 protection. One of these maniacs could really have a field day well beyond what happened on Friday.

In a mall setting, movie theatre, and most public places, there is a reasonable chance of a citizen carrying, an off duty police officer, security guard close,etc..

You can't prevent them all and they will find a place, our schools just can't be an option without some type of lethal force in place.

[Vince@Meanstreets]

Sure, its easy to plan and say how we would react in a deadly situation is but the honest truth is, how we react and how we should have reacted are two different things. People freeze, become confussed by either the comotion, just fear stricken or are just in pure denile of what is going on before them.

The flight 93 example you state is valid but think of it this way. How do we really know what happened. We are given ideas of that situation from what the government wants us to believe by a black box and a few cell phones that recorded sounds. Again spoon fed to us by the media. Unfortunately the true witnesses are no longer alive. For all we know maybe the plane would not have crashed or the military shot it down considering its flight path. No one will ever know how people reacted in a grave situation. I would love to believe they acted heroically but I can't be certain. No one can.

Im not saying I am right or you are wrong, im just saying think of all options and people especially in groups do not react well or co ordinated. Is there such thing as dying well.

Originally Posted by WSSix

Again, I'm not referring to this instance explicitly. Reasoning with a person who clearly has massacre on their mind, as evidenced by these random attackers just simply starting to shoot people as compared to using a gun as a tool to have power over you to rob you, went out the window when the gun started firing. You're no longer being reasonable to believe you can reason with that person.

Flight 93 is a perfect example of the point I'm trying to make. Those people knew they were probably going to die regardless of whatever the terrorist told them, which I have no idea what they were told. Instead of sitting there with the attitude of someone will save us, they got up and did something. Maybe they would have been triumphant. Maybe they would have all died no matter what they did. The difference is they tried and fought for the one thing they could not lose. I don't see the whole of society having that same attitude and I think it's actually being discouraged and punished in many respects. I believe that's wrong.

[WSSix]

Originally Posted by Vince@MSperfab

Sure, its easy to plan and say how we would react in a deadly situation is but the honest truth is, how we react and how we should have reacted are two different things. People freeze, become confussed by either the comotion, just fear stricken or are just in pure denile of what is going on before them.

The flight 93 example you state is valid but think of it this way. How do we really know what happened. We are given ideas of that situation from what the government wants us to believe by a black box and a few cell phones that recorded sounds. Again spoon fed to us by the media. Unfortunately the true witnesses are no longer alive. For all we know maybe the plane would not have crashed or the military shot it down considering its flight path. No one will ever know how people reacted in a grave situation. I would love to believe they acted heroically but I can't be certain. No one can.

Im not saying I am right or you are wrong, im just saying think of all options and people especially in groups do not react well or co ordinated. Is there such thing as dying well.

No, I don't believe there is such a thing as dying well in a situation like this.

You're correct that we don't know what happened completely in any of these situations. I'm just making general observations based on what I've learned. My comments are on the trends seen in these terrible situations which I believe are a symptom of a failed belief system. Maybe my reactions and beliefs are different than all those involved. I'm just tired of hearing about these tragedies. I truly believe the best way to counter them is to instill in people the belief that they must make sure they do everything they can to preserve their life, and that fighting for your life is better than not even if the outcome is the same. I'm more angry than sad in response to these tragedies.

A side note to this is the Holocaust. Millions of people where systematically exterminated over the course of years. They lined up peacefully and obediently went to their deaths. Why did they not fight back? Sure, the Nazis had the guns. There were way more Jews and other prisoners in the camps than guards though. They could have done more than go quietly to their deaths. The fact that they didn't boggles my mind. I see similar responses or lack there of in these current events.

[Shmoov69]

Originally Posted by Mkelcy

Those women were heros in the truest sense of the word.

AMEN!! And to elaborate even more, I'd say that even "if" these ladies were hiding in a corner, they are STILL heroes to me...they took the bullets from the nutjob.

Typing this as I watch the game tonight and a commercial for the game "Hitman-Absolution" comes on...... A HUGE problem with the younger generation IMO. Total and complete "numbness" for life and even reality for that matter. Is it "the" problem, no but it is a big part of the pie I think. "THE" problem is that the moral compass of society has lost it's magnetism..... We are a "feel good" society and there isn't much of an absolute right and wrong on a lot of things, which just adds to the problem.

[IMPALA MAN]

I don't know the answer but something has to change. Same day, 47 guns, and a man that threatened to kill as many people as he could at an elementary school in northern Indiana. See the link. http://news.yahoo.com/ind-man-47-gun...164928349.html

[Vegas69]

[ccracin]

Originally Posted by Vince@MSperfab

I did too, I was beat down often by an alcoholic father. Tough love.

I like to believe I and you are the lucky ones that made it out unscathed but what about the 10% that don't. Different people react to negative inputs. All it takes is a moment of weakness and what one does with that feeling.

Making the school system turn into a prison will be a hard sell. You know how bean counters look at life. The look at percentages not what ifs.

Vince,

I'm sorry to hear about your situation, but glad you came out of it a better person. Mine however was not the same. What I meant was my parents were strict in that they told me what was right and wrong in their view and were unwavering in that position. Unlike what I see alot of today, when parents are acting more like friends and equals to their kids. As soon as the child has an issue in school for example, the teacher is automatically a problem and has it in for the child. When I got a bad report from school, I was in for it. However, my parents never struck me other than a bare hand to the bottom here and there. My Dad was a carpenter. He made a nice 3/4" plywood paddle and painted it up with my name on it. I was never struck with that paddle, but I knew when I saw it I messed up. Just the thought of being spanked with it was enough. Today, that would be considered abuse. I don't get it. There are folks around our area that have parties for teens with alcohol. They make the statement that they are going to do it anyway, they might as well know where they are and make sure they are safe. Really? To me there's a time to be a parent and a time to be a friend. Others allow teenage girls to have sleepover parties that include guys. Really? WTF To me, this is setting up generations of poor decisions. Some of this should be common sense.

There will always be mental illness and that is the tough problem to figure out. But to me the rest is about teaching children good principles and values as well as basic right and wrong. It's like anything else, proper knowledge and education helps you handle those negative inputs properly.

I can only hope that my wife and I are half the parents mine have been to me. If we are, I am confident we will have a fighting chance with our daughters as they grow up.

I also agree about making schools resemble prison security, but it might be necessary if only in the short term.

Just as a quick note as well. My wife is the homeroom Mom for my daughters 3rd grade class. This week is their class Christmas party. She just got an email from teacher outlining all the new procedures they will have to follow to be permitted in the school. So at least our district is taking these events to heart. She did say it was tough putting them on the bus this morning.