Shooting in Connecticut

[nicks67ca]

Originally Posted by realcoray

The question I have is, how is verifying in all transactions that the buyer can legally own the weapon, infringing on your rights?

What if to purchase a gun, from ANY source, you needed a permit. The permit process would be equivilent to the current process, with a waiting period and background searches. The permit would be valid for say 6 months.

With a permit, you could purchase any weapon with no wait but it would either have to be overseen by law enforcement, or you could certainly create a situation where licensed sellers could handle this.

The same would apply to private sales, you'd have to perform the transaction through a seller or your sherrif.

Granted, this sort of stuff would probably mean higher fees, but it has benefits for gun purchasers, and would help close the giant loophole where criminals have plenty of ways to get guns.

Essentially, the more we are able to be sure that guns are getting into the hands of responsible people, the less control you need on the guns themselves. If it's just willy nilly which it basically is right now, then I'd rather not have assault rifles be everywhere, but if only stand up people have them, then I could care less.

I would agree with private sale transfers there is no good check and balance. For example in Ct you can call 24/7 to get a private sale authorization from the state but its not required (on long guns).

I actually enjoy being a permit holder I can buy on the spot with no waiting period. I have gone through the process and found it simple and effective. I actually know people who have been turned down for permits due to choices they made in the past.

There are too many what if scenarios that can all be played out. To effectively create reform around a constantly evolving criminal and mental thought process is like guessing tonight's lotto numbers. If you know it can you share it?

[realcoray]

Originally Posted by nicks67ca

There are too many what if scenarios that can all be played out. To effectively create reform around a constantly evolving criminal and mental thought process is like guessing tonight's lotto numbers. If you know it can you share it?

Without a doubt criminals could probably still get guns. I mean the typical methods they might employ now would still work. Many guns criminals end up with were stolen from legal owners for example.

The thing is, it is not valid to say that because we can't seal guns off completely from criminals and crazy people, that we just shouldn't try to close the existing giant holes.

[camcojb]

Originally Posted by realcoray

Without a doubt criminals could probably still get guns. I mean the typical methods they might employ now would still work. Many guns criminals end up with were stolen from legal owners for example.

The thing is, it is not valid to say that because we can't seal guns off completely from criminals and crazy people, that we just shouldn't try to close the existing giant holes.

There is NO doubt that they will still get guns. How would your ideas have prevented the last tragedy? Again, I'm not against background checks, we have the ten day waiting period here for gun purchases. If you make it so all sales/transfers require this it's fine with me. But that does not stop what's happening. We need to look at other options to prevent or limit these tragedies. For some reason laws and gun-free zones don't seem to deter criminals.

[realcoray]

Originally Posted by camcojb

There is NO doubt that they will still get guns. How would your ideas have prevented the last tragedy? Again, I'm not against background checks, we have the ten day waiting period here for gun purchases. If you make it so all sales/transfers require this it's fine with me. But that does not stop what's happening. We need to look at other options to prevent or limit these tragedies. For some reason laws and gun-free zones don't seem to deter criminals.

I agree completely, there isn't anything you can do to prevent someone who wants a weapon from getting one, no matter what country you live in, no matter the laws.

The school shooting would still have occured (especially as some apparently believe, that the government did it), the aurora shooting would still have occured, as would have others.

There is no gun related solution that is going to just get rid of mass shootings, but that doesn't mean it's not a solid idea to make it more difficult for known felons to get weapons.

I'd rather felons have to do something criminal to get a gun (beyond the fact it's not legal for them to have one), than to just buy it from a gunshow without answering any questions.

[Shmoov69]

We are all (or mostly) talking rationally and logically here. That is NOT the point to the government, they don't care If it's rational or logical..... Because rationality and logic does NOT fit thier agenda. Which IS to disarm the population. PERIOD. It's about power and control, NOT freedom, and this shooting fits just perfectly. I'm not saying that they "done it", but they are going to exploit it for ALL its worth to fit their agenda.

One step at a time, and this is just a big step for them.
My .02

Tinfoil anyone?!? LOL!

Originally Posted by Spiffav8

There are numerous 'tools' for every job. Some being a little better suited for the task at hand than others. A gun is simply a tool and when you break it down, some are better than others. A high capacity magazine is simply a part or feature of that specific gun. As I stated before, it really doesn't take any time to change out a magazine. I can reload my 1911 (8 rounds) faster than I can my SIG P226 and I'm a better shot with my SIG. I try to look at things like this from 'the other side'. Let's say someone used a 1911 to commit a crime like a school shooting. The larger caliber would be more effective. Thinner magazines would mean less bulk and one could move and fire more effectively, just to point out a few. My point is, that it's not the tool, it's how it's used. Banning any type of weapon or magazine capacity isn't the answer. Education on responsible gun ownership and more action against crime, while helping mentally unstable people (who are not criminals) is the key.

There is NO justification for taking anything away from law abiding people. The actions by a great number of our elected officials, who are using the recent shootings to stir an emotional response, rather than make an informed and rational decision, that would be a positive, is shameful. Good people are being treated as criminals and having their rights stripped away. IF they are allowed to take your 2nd amendment rights, what's to say or stop them from taking more? It doesn't matter what side of the issue you are on. What matters is taking the right/smart actions to protect our rights. The current knee jerking does not address the root cause of violent crime in the US.

[camcojb]

Originally Posted by realcoray

I'd rather felons have to do something criminal to get a gun (beyond the fact it's not legal for them to have one), than to just buy it from a gunshow without answering any questions.

How does a gun show differ from a transaction anywhere else?

[GregWeld]

The latest Murder Statistics for the world: (Murders per 100,000 citizens)

Honduras 91.6
El Salvador 69.2
Cote d'lvoire 56.9
Jamaica 52.2
Venezuela 45.1
Belize 41.4
US Virgin Islands 39.2
Guatemala 38.5
Saint Kits and Nevis 38.2
Zambia 38.0
Uganda 36.3
Malawi 36.0
Lesotho 35.2
Trinidad and Tobago 35.2
Colombia 33.4
South Africa 31.8
Congo 30.8
Central African Republic 29.3
Bahamas 27.4
Puerto Rico 26.2
Saint Lucia 25.2
Dominican Republic 25.0
Tanzania 24.5
Sudan 24.2
Saint Vincent and the Grenadines 22.9
Ethiopia 22.5
Guinea 22.5
Dominica 22.1
Burundi 21.7
Democratic Republic of the Congo 21.7
Panama 21.6
Brazil 21.0
Equatorial Guinea 20.7
Guinea-Bissau 20.2
Kenya 20.1
Kyrgyzstan 20.1
Cameroon 19.7
Montserrat 19.7
Greenland 19.2
Angola 19.0
Guyana 18.6
Burkina Faso 18.0
Eritrea 17.8
Namibia 17.2
Rwanda 17.1
Mexico 16.9
Chad 15.8
Ghana 15.7
Ecuador 15.2
North Korea 15.2
Benin 15.1
Sierra Leone 14.9
Mauritania 14.7
Botswana 14.5
Zimbabwe 14.3
Gabon 13.8
Nicaragua 13.6
French Guiana 13.3
Papua New Guinea 13.0
Swaziland 12.9
Bermuda 12.3
Comoros 12.2
Nigeria 12.2
Cape Verde 11.6
Grenada 11.5
Paraguay 11.5
Barbados 11.3
Togo 10.9
Gambia 10.8
Peru 10.8
Myanmar 10.2
Russia 10.2
Liberia 10.1
Costa Rica 10.0
Nauru 9.8
Bolivia 8.9
Mozambique 8.8
Kazakhstan 8.8
Senegal 8.7
Turks and Caicos Islands 8.7
Mongolia 8.7
British Virgin Islands 8.6
Cayman Islands 8.4
Seychelles 8.3
Madagascar 8.1
Indonesia 8.1
Mali 8.0
Pakistan 7.8
Moldova 7.5
Kiribati 7.3
Guadeloupe 7.0
Haiti 6.9
Timor-Leste 6.9
Anguilla 6.8
Antigua and Barbuda 6.8
Lithuania 6.6
Uruguay 5.9
Philippines 5.4
Ukraine 5.2
Estonia 5.2
Cuba 5.0
Belarus 4.9
Thailand 4.8
Suriname 4.6
Laos 4.6
Georgia 4.3
Martinique 4.2
And ....The United States 4.2
ALL the countries above America have 100% gun bans !!

[Ketzer]

Originally Posted by Shmoov69

We are all (or mostly) talking rationally and logically here. That is NOT the point to the government, they don't care If it's rational or logical..... Because rationality and logic does NOT fit thier agenda. Which IS to disarm the population.

Word!

Pass the foil, Jimmy.


Jeff-

[Vince@Meanstreets]

Originally Posted by camcojb

How will this slow down criminals? We have laws against drugs you know, and they're more readily available than ever, haven't even made a dent in them. I am not against background checks, I think they need to be continued. I just don't think that's going to prevent what just happened. The previous assault weapon ban would not have changed anything in this instance.

Yes, lets put the money and effort into the root cause. Or is the root cause part of the Governments plan? Not sure what is happening.

Foil? thats old school. Ebay.... $19.95

[realcoray]

Originally Posted by camcojb

How does a gun show differ from a transaction anywhere else?

I just picked that arbitrarily, of course to be effective you have to have oversight over all sales, even between individuals.

The other aspect is somehow improving security of guns which legal owners have, but I don't have a lot of ideas that would be truly effective and not be invasive. The angle there is that a key source of guns for typical criminals would be stolen guns.

Technology exists to all but eliminate that, but it would basically have to be mandated and it isn't practical to apply it to the 300 million guns we already have. You can't fix this thing anytime soon and intense gun rights people basically shoot down any idea that doesn't just solve it immediately.

Mandating something like biometric trigger locks so only authorized people can fire a particular gun would take decades to make a difference and would increase the cost of guns. The first thing alone is enough to make most of you dismiss it, since it won't immediately stop all gun murders, and the second one will have people howling also, even though the 2nd amendment doesn't say guns have to be cheap.

Then of course the fact remains that some criminals would be able to secure ones through some other mechanism (smuggled into the country, etc), so since we can't seal them off completely, we may as well not do anything!

The average felon who has a gun, does not have some sort of international weapon traficker bring them guns in shipping containers. Why do that when you can just buy one from a guy down the street? Would they do that when they couldn't buy from down the street?

The cost of a gun smuggled in is probably a multiple of what it would be from a private seller, and many criminals are not rolling in money, so while it's possible, chances decrease that they could secure a working weapon.

Of course then the argument is the knife attacks in China, wouldn't people just use knives? Of course someone can use a knife but it's a lot harder to kill 20+ people with a knife than it is with an assault weapon.

All of that is not even touching on the violent culture and mental health care issues which gun people point to. I agree completely, those things need to be looked at. The reality is, no one change is going to do it, so you look at each area, and take the low hanging fruit, obvious things and some of these gun things are just obvious.