I'm Starting Some Trouble....

[Ketzer]

Ok, most of you are waaayyy more savvy than me and have owned more hotrods than I could dream to, but you're telling me that the LS is the holy grail and Ford has not made a single modern engine that even comes close?

I get how easy and bulletproof they are. I have an LS project in the works myself but it is a Chevy. When I see nicely done Ford (usually pre-war, usually a really nice build) and they've dropped an LS in there (with all the bullsh!t plastic covers still on it) I think "that's a shame, you had a chance to do something here"...

I am not picking on GW here, his latest is super super nice. It could have a Briggs and Stratton and it wouldn't take away from it.


Jeff-

[GregWeld]

I see The Skippah has yet to defend his "there's something better than an LS" claim.... HA! Good luck with that one!




Jeff ----


Roy and I did discuss the "Ford in a Ford".... only just because. However, the modern Fords are too wide for the little hot rod noses... and there just aren't a variety of parts so now you get into all manor of custom pieces - thus driving up the cost.

That left the option of doing "old skool" Ford -- such as a Roush -- but his motor prices are beyond ridiculous... AND I met a guy at L A Roadster show that had issues with his Roush - they wouldn't stand behind it - he had it torn down and it was nothing but a factory crate motor internally. So needless to say -- whether this was true or not (I believe it to be fact) I've had enough issues with '32 and wanted this build to be as trouble free as I could TRY to make it.

[Vince@Meanstreets]

If Ford made a perfect engine they might make some money.

What makes the 5.0L Coyote and "not so perfect" engine?

[GregWeld]

Originally Posted by Vince@MSperfab

If Ford made a perfect engine they might make some money.

What makes the 5.0L Coyote and "not so perfect" engine?

We can just start with the simple fact that it's FIVE INCHES WIDER than the LARGER displacement 6.2L LS3 480hp motor!

There isn't a spare 5" width (as measured at the valve cover to valve cover) just hanging around --- in many applications - and particularly in 30's hot rods that are already pinched in the nose...

Why go to all the work and expense just to prove some pointless point?

The LS motor is cheap - small - reliable - doesn't leak - is easy to source a multitude of parts for... headers - accessory drives - and on and on....

So the Coyote 5.0L motor is 412hp and costs $6300 and I can buy a 480hp LS3 crate motor that's easier in every way to install for $300 more.... There's really not much of a compelling reason for the "Ford in a Ford" in my book.

[badmatt]

Mod motors cost a lot of money to work with.

Plus I agree with Greg, I just did a valve spring replacement in my dads 07 F150.... on cylinder #4, The tool was grossly expensive, not to mention you cant even get both hands any wear near anything unless your freakishly small!

SBX or LSX till I die.

[uxojerry]

Everyone thinks the SBF or SBC/BBC are obsolete unless you spend time on various racing forums. I dont mind seeing an LS9 in a Mustang, but if I see one more 5.3l swap, Im going to puke, lol.

The 8.2" deck SBF is an awful practical engine for a swap into a car with limited space. A 331 SBF with High Port heads will easily hit 500hp and isnt particularly expensive. They sound wonderful shifting at 8000rpm.

The LS is a great motor and is very cost effective. I am often baffled when I see a $100k+ car build and then they dump a crate LS3 into it. As an example they have come out with an updated W409 motor bored to 509ci. The engine puts out near 700hp, is available in all aluminum with efi. Butler Performance is doing similar with Pontiac motors. Another vendor is coming out with new Oldsmobile stuff.

A few years ago, the Gen 4 motor made every Gen 3 obsolete. In the near future the Gen 5 may do the same. Using the cars original engine architecture with new high performance blocks, heads and efi make for a more timeless car build, It also honors the heritage and DNA of the car. For the record, I am not a numbers matching guy.

I am working on a C2 Corvette with a 700hp+ SBC with 8 stack efi and have a chrome bumper C3. The C3 will get a 900hp+ BBC. I stuck with traditional modernized engines for the reasons stated above. Both engines are/will be NA, built with off the shelf parts!

For the record that Mustang with the LS9 could have been built with a 650hp 9.5" deck SBF for a lot less money. The weight argument is moot when you factor in LS9 dry sump and supercharger weight.





You could order the drag pack motor with the 8 stack and still be $3k-$4k under the cost of the LS9 with all of the hardware. Either engine is available in aluminum.

[Vince@Meanstreets]

Ford engineers need to go back to the drawing board and start making something that will work. An inexpensive, compact, 390+ cube aluminum engine.

[WSSix]

HP/$ the LSx platform wins every time with EFI. You might be able to do better if you stay carbed with other options but I doubt it. Modern Ford motors are overly complex mechanically. There's nothing superior about the design of a Mod motor and to me, that's sad. I say this because it costs so much to modify one that it drives your hobbyist away compared to many other readily available alternatives be it a SBC/LSX or even a traditional SBF/BBF. People used to believe that OHC was the future given its advantages. The LSx platform crushed that idea. VVT is further proving that OHC is not necessary. Ford went with the "advanced" design and have ended up with an overly complex engine. It's obviously not hurting sales of their vehicles which is all they care about but we are concerned with other factors. The Mod motor just doesn't work for a lot of people. I do like seeing them, for instance Matt's mustang, but I understand the reasons they aren't around as much as the LSx.

Now EcoBoost is cool. That's not motor design though.

[GregWeld]

Originally Posted by uxojerry

The LS is a great motor and is very cost effective. I am often baffled when I see a $100k+ car build and then they dump a crate LS3 into it. As an example they have come out with an updated W409 motor bored to 509ci. The engine puts out near 700hp, is available in all aluminum with efi.

Sorry and don't take this personally because it's not meant to be -- but I have to call BS right there at the W409 aluminum block with EFI -- because I called Mister Walden -- the birth father of that particular motor and spoke to him personally and was quoted "Around 50 GRAND" for that particular motor.....


So let's not even consider that as a viable alternative for ANYTHING!

[214Chevy]

Originally Posted by uxojerry

You could order the drag pack motor with the 8 stack and still be $3k-$4k under the cost of the LS9 with all of the hardware. Either engine is available in aluminum.

Jerry, for the simple fact the LS9 is supercharged, of course a carbed or 8 stack will be cheaper. The supercharger is $7k alone. So, there's the difference right there.