Discussion about the actual resale value of a Pro-touring car

[MaxHarvard]

Originally Posted by GregWeld

Buy good businesses and hold

... I'm listening...

[hp2]

Originally Posted by 96z28ss

If you had a 5th gen and 1st gen Camaro and each were purchased at the same price. The new ZL1 will depreciate at a much greater rate than a 1st gen Camaro.
That's what keeps me from buying a new Camaro.

Originally Posted by ironworks

You will be lucky to get 35k for that ZL-1 next year.

Nobody said depreciation was a factor in this. However if it is, then what percentage of depreciate occurs when a stock 1st gen is highly modified with cut and weld changes that cannot be easily returned to stock? Does it depreciate, does it appreciate? Based on what I see on auction shows, the stock and resto-mod group seems will to pay appreciation. The highly modified jury is still 50/50.

Originally Posted by GregWeld

I don't think "the hobby" is buying a new car.

Hobby is a very good point, but again, the original question was value placed on sale as a means of business so someone can make a living building cars they love and still feed their family. I'd love to make $100k a year building stuff like my own junk, but the odds of that happening are about the same as me becoming a rock star. The hobby means different things to different people, some of whom the owning and not necessarily the working is the hobby.

Originally Posted by ill steez

I can understand your point, but I think the majority of the people here put a much greater premium on the "nostalgia" that you mention. I just don't think it's quantifiable like that.

I've got a first gen Camaro because it's my dream car - not because I can justify the expense over a new Z28.

Which highlights exactly what I was trying to imply. As hobbiests, we build what moves us, what fuels our passion. If you try to build cars that can be resold you have to step back from that passion and look at what moves the market in broader strokes if you truly want to make a living selling modified cars.

How many guys on here have that passion, understand the mechanics of getting there, and are well heeled enough to drop $100k on a 1st gen? I'd guess that is a very narrow market segment. However, there is a very large group who perceive the nostalgia of the 1st gen, have a passion for it, like the pro-touring look, and want to be able to drive that same car anywhere like they would a late model. they do not require nth degree handling, nor are highly concerned with the mathematics to get there. To that segment, they will compare the features and capability of that classic against a late model. These are not the died in the wool, hard core hobbiest like u son here and they won't give a flying flip through a rolling donut hole how big the disc rotors are or how the geometry is corrected on the a-arms . These are the guys willing to go out and get a loan on a car for a toy and pay someone for it. Like someone who wants to build modified old cars for a living.

I look at it this way, take car enthusiasts as a whole. That's a large market. Now split it domestic and import, that reduces the number in each category. Then split the domestics between classic and late model, another reduced number. Now slice that among the various manufacturers, smaller numbers. If you continue to slice it down to the point that you only build high end, highly modified, pro touring, 1st gen Camaros for $100k, then you have narrowed the market very significantly. Granted, pro touring 1st gen Camaros are probably the most popular car in that segment, but that's still, compared to the balance of the hobby, a narrow segment you are tring to attract and retain. How much saturation will it support, I couldn't begin to guess.

[ArisESQ]

Originally Posted by hp2

Which highlights exactly what I was trying to imply. As hobbiests, we build what moves us, what fuels our passion. If you try to build cars that can be resold you have to step back from that passion and look at what moves the market in broader strokes if you truly want to make a living selling modified cars.

How many guys on here have that passion, understand the mechanics of getting there, and are well heeled enough to drop $100k on a 1st gen? I'd guess that is a very narrow market segment. However, there is a very large group who perceive the nostalgia of the 1st gen, have a passion for it, like the pro-touring look, and want to be able to drive that same car anywhere like they would a late model. they do not require nth degree handling, nor are highly concerned with the mathematics to get there. To that segment, they will compare the features and capability of that classic against a late model. These are not the died in the wool, hard core hobbiest like u son here and they won't give a flying flip through a rolling donut hole how big the disc rotors are or how the geometry is corrected on the a-arms . These are the guys willing to go out and get a loan on a car for a toy and pay someone for it. Like someone who wants to build modified old cars for a living.

I look at it this way, take car enthusiasts as a whole. That's a large market. Now split it domestic and import, that reduces the number in each category. Then split the domestics between classic and late model, another reduced number. Now slice that among the various manufacturers, smaller numbers. If you continue to slice it down to the point that you only build high end, highly modified, pro touring, 1st gen Camaros for $100k, then you have narrowed the market very significantly. Granted, pro touring 1st gen Camaros are probably the most popular car in that segment, but that's still, compared to the balance of the hobby, a narrow segment you are tring to attract and retain. How much saturation will it support, I couldn't begin to guess.

I don't think anyone here suggested that the plan was to sell pro-touring cars at a high volume...
The question was: what the actual resale value of a pro-touring car with modifications is; if that resale can be determined based on the sum of the specific modifications; and what the "sweet spot" in terms of cost to modify to return on invest is.

That being said - I think there most definitely IS a market for these cars, and I think there definitely are people out there who will pay top dollar for a heavily modified pro-touring car, as long as the car is actually built well.

Coach builders like Singer have proven that people are willing to pay over $200,000 for nostalgia, as long as that nostalgia actually runs and drives reliably. I think many of Stielow's builds could fit this segment - particularly Hellfire and Jackass.

[dontlifttoshift]

Originally Posted by ArisESQ

I don't think anyone here suggested that the plan was to sell pro-touring cars at a high volume...
The question was: what the actual resale value of a pro-touring car with modifications is; if that resale can be determined based on the sum of the specific modifications; and what the "sweet spot" in terms of cost to modify to return on invest is.

The return is 40 to 50 cents on the dollar on a turn key car. The more you spend initially the lower the return. There are exceptions to that....

That being said - I think there most definitely IS a market for these cars, and I think there definitely are people out there who will pay top dollar for a heavily modified pro-touring car, as long as the car is actually built well.

Yep, that is what keeps the shops in business.

Coach builders like Singer have proven that people are willing to pay over $200,000 for nostalgia, as long as that nostalgia actually runs and drives reliably. I think many of Stielow's builds could fit this segment - particularly Hellfire and Jackass.

Now we get into the exceptions, a car built by Stielow (or any other big name) carries some pedigree, there is a value in a particular name being attached to a build. Warning: fictional numbers used for the sake of conversation ahead......Stielow"s Hellfire may bring may bring 300K at an auction like BJ, Donny's Belltire, identically equipped may do half that.

Setting aside the fact that I can't actually write a check that large, I would gladly pay 200K for a car build that is _exactly_ what I want but would never pay near that for a car that was _exactly_ what another individual wanted. Weld can relate I think, you can buy a '40 pickup done pretty nicely for 50K, a friend just bough one in primer, running and driving but needing work for under 15K.......but it wouldn't be Greg's truck and wouldn't be the way he wants.

Back to the OP, the only mod that pays you back is air conditioning. Mama ain't happy, ain't nobody happy.

[chichirone]

[QUOTE=ironworks;572280]But my questions is what are the elements people look for at different price ranges?

I believe that people look for the most they can find for the least amount of cash required to obtain it. The examples you provided are terrific samples of the cars and market prices people can acquire, but I feel your question is a bit loaded. I would be asking how big the market actually is for pro-touring cars. Search "pro-touring" in the search line on fleabay and you get a $250k fully customized g-machine to a completely stock 1st gen Camaro in the mid-twenties. The best part is, of the thousands of cars on the site, only 20-40 show up with the pro-touring moniker. The buyers market is very thin for the cars we have in this hobby.

Does one suspension MFG command more resale value over another?

NO...I do not believe most people have a clue about different MFG's and those that do, recognize the value of the parts AND the way they work. We are talking a very small sliver of the market will pay more for the suspensions we bolt on or are custom made. I definitely would (and have) paid more but I am a realist and know that the average buyer is not going to have a clue. What may open the market a little more is knowing it has a 4-link, Watts, 3-link or other suspension type versus leaf springs.

Does the high resale value make it worth the added cost and possibly labor to install? NO...there is not a HIGH resale value of a PT car. And NO there is not a high resale value for labor. The ride and feel of the car with no rattles or squeaks will tho. That will recoup a greater percentage of the parts cost, kind of like Blake mentioned in his response.

How much more money is a car worth that has great stance?

More than one with a crappy stance. HA! Sorry for the sarcasm. Look at the dealers and guys that buy and resell a lot on CL and eBay. Tires, wheels, dropped leafs with lowering blocks, a shiny car wash and a chick in the picture. Their cars are always $5-10k more than the same version with stock wheels and stance. My dad always told me if you want to sell your car, go buy some chrome wheels. Wheels make the car more than any other modification IMO.

Do mini tubbed cars command enough money to pay for the additional labor expense on a street car?

YES...This is becoming more mainstream. Big tires are more attractive than other mods. There is a mini tubbed 69 Camaro leaf sprung car with 345's for sale locally for $65k. Other than that, it's a carbureted sbc, 4-speed, with a stock houndstooth interior and clone baldwin motion paint job and stock suspension.

Or does the matter more when the car has bigger horsepower? Does say an LS9 command alot more money then say an LSA? Or even more if it was a high end builder like Kurt Urban, Mast, Wegner?

Yes, to those that know what the brand name is and how much horsepower is "bigger horsepower". Again, a very small sliver of the market pays attention to this. On this site we see 1000+ hp builds. On the street, 500hp is a shocker to many people. A guy with a 268hp Camry is going to sh*t himself with an LS3 5th gen Camaro SS. It's all relative. I think FI versus carbureted is more attractive to buyers in todays market.

What is the ideal platform to make money on in the Gas Monkey Garage kinda builds that are built for resale? Camaro..... Obviously rust free is an obvious first start.

Start with the same brand and models of the cars we see getting built on this site. Camaros, Mustangs, Chevelles, Novas, etc...Add a little lipstick and rouge, drop in an LS or EFI SB or BB with a 5 or 6 speed or modern automatic, lower the stance a little with some coil overs and turn them quick. If you can sell 15-20 cars a month with an average profit of $3-5k, you can make a little bit of money Gas Monkey Garage style. Target price is $35-50k. I agree with Greg tho, if you want to make a profit, go elsewhere. Investing 102.

This is a great thread. Really makes one think about our hobby and the cars we love. No wonder only 3 people showed interest in either of my cars when they were on the cars for sale page.

[carbuff]

Here is an example which had to be painful for the seller (I didn't search for it, but there was a build thread on this car here in the past).

https://www.mecum.com/lot-detail.cfm...=CH1014-195872

The selling price was $87k, then subtract the 6% seller fee. I know that car was for sale on eBay a while back with a BIN price around $180k. Ouch...

[Build-It-Break-it]

Wow that is an extreme kick to the wallet.

I think that maybe people are scared to pay top dollar due to depreciation value. What's cool today may not be so cool in ten years. Mini trucks were OK when they first came out but are they cool now? Not so much.

I'm personally building a "pro touring" car for myself but I'm building it for myself. If your building these cars with high end aftermarket parts trying to make top dollar then you haven't done your research. Most people at auctions pay for nostalgia and properly build stock /restomod cars at auctions, not highly modified ones.

You have to take your personality out of how you build cars to resell and build what EVERYONE can relate to at auction, young and older crowd.

[GregWeld]

Originally Posted by carbuff

Here is an example which had to be painful for the seller (I didn't search for it, but there was a build thread on this car here in the past).

https://www.mecum.com/lot-detail.cfm...=CH1014-195872

The selling price was $87k, then subtract the 6% seller fee. I know that car was for sale on eBay a while back with a BIN price around $180k. Ouch...

Was this the "Mobile Closing Office" built by AllSpeed??? If so I remember the build and seeing it at OUSCI... the 87K paid was too much.

[carbuff]

Originally Posted by GregWeld

Was this the "Mobile Closing Office" built by AllSpeed??? If so I remember the build and seeing it at OUSCI... the 87K paid was too much.

That was the one. And ouch again... Didn't realize that was the case. The car certainly appeared to have a lot of time/work in it...

[ArisESQ]

Originally Posted by carbuff

Here is an example which had to be painful for the seller (I didn't search for it, but there was a build thread on this car here in the past).

https://www.mecum.com/lot-detail.cfm...=CH1014-195872

The selling price was $87k, then subtract the 6% seller fee. I know that car was for sale on eBay a while back with a BIN price around $180k. Ouch...

I think that car is a good representation of something that is "too custom" for most people. I'd be willing to be that it would have fetched more in relation to it's build cost if it looked mostly stock, or "OEM," like Steilow's cars.

I think the other thing that's going to bring in a consistently higher selling price is uniformity in the build. By that I mean that the builder has built more than one similar car, and has "sorted out" the problem areas. I suspect that most buyers of high end cars would feel a lot more comfortable spending a large sum of money when they see a builder can "manufacturer" a small volume of vehicles that meet a uniform standard of quality.

By the way - I am in no way suggesting that the Firebird in that link is not a high quality build. I can tell that a lot of effort went into making a beautiful car... I just think it's too specifically built to appeal to a broad market.

Compare that Firebird above with the Year One Burt Reynolds Edition
Buyers seem to be willing to pay more when they can buy a turn key car as a package, without having to worry about all the details associated with customizing the build - especially when they know other people are buying a similarly built car. I think it just comes down to perceived reliability.

So like I said before - I think if someone could figure out how to assembly line a first or second gen with minitubs, an LS3, AC, disc brakes, decent wheels, and a nicely upgraded leather interior that looks relatively OEM, I think they'd be able to command a higher price than what most of the customs have been going for at Barrett Jackson.