What would a USCA pro-touring class look like??

[96z28ss]

I have volunteered at both the Optima Challenge and RTTC events. I love going to see the pre 1980 cars run. I think that muscle cars are what made these events special. There are tons of late model cars racing in other series. The Optima Challenge was showcasing that the muscle cars with the help of the aftermarket parts were making them handle and perform like modern day cars. You can see how the muscle cars dominated this in the early years.

2008 Optima 6 out of 28 cars were newer than 1980
2009 Optima 11 out of 51 cars were newer than 1980
2010 Optima 13 out of 50 cars were newer than 1980
2011 Optima 19 out of 52 cars were newer than 1980
2012 Optima 24 out of 53 cars were newer than 1980
2013 Optima 25 out of 52 cars were newer than 1980
2014 Optima 61 out of 104 cars were newer than 1980

This started with pro-touring cars. I'd like to see them stay competitive in this series in some form. I'm not sure how you do it exactly.
As you can see the muscle cars are now less than half the field.

I'd also like to see the term Street car actually mean something. The car should pass a 50 state DOT inspection minus the emissions part.

[Ron Sutton]

Food for thought from the old racer guy that has been around the block ...

I can't think of any competition sanctioning body that has achieved long term success & staying power without multiple classes/divisions.

NHRA
IHRA
NASCAR
IMSA
TUDOR
CART
IRL
USAC
WoO
Sprint Cars
Micro Sprints
SCCA Autocross
SCCA Road Racing
SCCA Pro Racing
Trans Am
GoodGuys AX
NASA
AMA
Supercross
SCORE
Lucas Off Road Series
TORC
IKF
WKA
Superkarts
Track day organizations

I'm sure there are exceptions I haven’t thought of … and someone will post one or more up … but the model of long term success (staying power) is to have multiple classes or divisions. Having personally been involved in series building activities & committees with many of these organizations, I observed firsthand & heard from leaders the top reasons are:

A. After the novelty wears off of "just being able to participate" ... entrants that are way out of their league ... performance wise ... fall away. It was fun once or even a few times ... but eventually being a LONG WAY off pace gets boring, frustrating, depressing, etc, and these slower participants feel the series is "not for them" and become disenfranchised ... ultimately becoming disengaged ... going onto some other competition events that they "fit in" better. The problem this creates is a very small base of competitive entrants that run the events & a high number of entrant churn. In the early stages of a growing series everyone is excited. But as the series matures, and we churn through a lot of entrants, the series finds itself with lower & lower car counts.

IMHO: When someone says it was a "once in lifetime experience for them" ... oh crap ... that's a clue they won't be doing this much more.

B. Low car counts is the death of a series. Fans want to see a lot cars. Sponsors want to see a lot of cars & lots of fans. Even competitors want to see a lot a lot of cars & lots of fans. Other than a few "win cherry picker" type of competitors ... most people want to go where the action is. So everyone that matters ... wants to see more cars & more action. Right now, the series is rockin'. It's the long term that needs to be looked at.

C. Financial viability of any series is based on volume. Other than sponsor dollars ... which go away if the series isn't hot, exciting & growing ... the key to making a series work (i.e. pay the bills) ... are large numbers of entrant fees & fans buying tickets. You simply can’t make it work long term without sustainable numbers.

D. Having multiple classes or divisions allows a larger number of potential entrants to participate with others in performance ranges closer to their levels of talent, budget & car capabilities. Of course too many classes is bad also, because it's confusing & dilutes the series. The key is a FEW, well thought out classes/divisions. If you look at the most successful models, they typically have 3-6. The series with too many classes/divisions, have other issues.

E. The sub-classes help pay for the show. There are WAY more people who can compete at a lower level ... and they want to compete in the cool event … provided there is a place they fit in well. Their volume helps pay for the show. Plus, these are the guys that actually buy parts from the sponsors & displaying vendors, whereas the elite competitors get much of their products sponsored to them.

F. The lower classes feed the top class. Over time, after a competitor has figured stuff out & won in the lower levels, a small number of them trickle up & "feed" the top class.

---------------------------------------------

As some of you know, I have participated in over 2000 race events & attended as a spectator a few hundred more. As a 2nd time spectator at this year's Optima event, my observations are:

Wow, what a great event. My hat is off to Jimi, Cam & the staff.
* It was well ran. As well as any competition event can run with 100+ cars.
* The 2 different AX tracks, brake stop & road course events really made it interesting & fun for the entrants & spectators.
* They ran a smart, safer show by placing the cars in road course groups based on experience.
* I was leery of the LVMS parking lot road course with no elevation charge being boring, but it was a great venue.
* Kudos for choosing the layout that kept cars away from each other where the corners & run off areas are near each other.
* Great job of keeping it fun for participants & spectators.

P.S. I don't know Jimi or Cam personally.

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My 2 cents on classes/divisions ...
(And I accept my opinion means nothing - LOL)

1. I agree there needs to be one top class that crowns the Ultimate Street Car. That "Unlimited" class/division needs to keep the rules ... or lack of ... just as they are, IMHO. Although, a 2500-2600# minimum weight rule might prevent some crazy one-off build from ruining the show. In my experience, this lack of rules breeds innovation, creativity & lets the top minds & top drivers have a place to show what they can do. They are the “main event.”

2. I believe there needs to be a very small number of sub-classes where a winner is declared & recognized in each respective class, along with the top 3 to 5 placers. The rules need to be minimal, but short & smart to keep a creative person like myself from ruining it for others in the class.

3. I think the sub-classes & rules should be:

A. Early American Iron
* Originally manufactured in America as a steel body car, 1989 & before
* Annual production quantities of 100+.
* Minimum weight somewhere around 2900-3100#.
* No ringer drivers. Owner/owner's family/builder only.
* Double the points available for “street car” functional features.
* Otherwise … “game on” … with no build rules.

B. Late Model
* Any year sports car (Corvette, Viper, Shelby, etc).
* Any year import car.
* Any American produced car 1990 & newer.
* Minimum weight somewhere around 2600-2800#.
* AWD drive cars (or maybe they have to run in the unlimited class).
* Any driver (already doing it anyway & many of these cars are bought, not built).
* Double the points available for “street car” functional features.
* Otherwise … “game on” … with no build rules.

C. American Hot Rod
* Any American produced car 1954 & older. (Maybe 1959 & older? )
* Minimum weight somewhere around 2900-3100#.
* No ringer drivers. Owner/owner's family/builder only.
* Double the points available for “street car” functional features.
* Otherwise … “game on” … with no build rules.

P.S. My “no build rules” in each of these sub-classes is purely because these are still meant to be the Ultimate Street Car … of their class. Not the best “average” or “restricted” car of their class.

P.P.S. My 1989 & older suggestion is based on when cars really changed, not when the muscle car era was. No one considers a 1988 Monte Carlo SS a high tech performance car. The 90’s is when performance cars from Detroit really started a comeback. Maybe the date of 1989 isn’t the best ... so a better date could be chosen.

P.P.P.S. I think the 10 points given right now for meeting all of the street legality requirements is too low. Right now it is a no brainer to forego some of that to build a faster car. That was evident by NASA/TT level race cars running at the top of the speed charts at this year's event. If the points were worth more, the top competitors would figure out how to be fastest with those items.

5. A few clarifying details ... in my opinion …
A. Anyone could skip these sub-classes and go compete in the Unlimited class for the title of Optima Ultimate Street Car.
B. Almost everyone would still be competing for the "Overall" Ultimate Street Car Title. If you can bring a car that fits into one of the sub classes ... and outperforms everyone ... your car is the Ultimate Street Car winner. (Although I do feel that should forfeit your sub-class win.)
C. The winning car in each class at the year end event could compete in the sub-class again, with a different driver.
D. The winning driver in each class at the year end event (not the qualifying events) should move up to the Unlimited class next year.

6. I feel there are some KEY awards that should be added to the existing awards that the participants also strive for, such as:
* Best Street Car ... for the car you'd really like to drive often & take on a cross country tour.
* Best Show Car ... for the most impressive appearance, style, craftsmanship, etc.
* Best Truck ... for the most impressive truck in the competition.
* Farthest Driven … for the car actually driven to the event from the longest distance.
* Fan Favorite ... open to voting.

I feel the Pro-Touring/G-Machine community would support the “Early American Iron” sub-class strongly. This group is where the Pro-Touring companies like Speedtech, Ridetech, Detroit Speed, etc. could prove their products worthiness & frankly lead to more sales for their companies in their target markets.

When you look at who the sponsors & vendors are outside of Optima & BFG ... they are primarily companies focused on the Pro-Touring & Street markets. We need to make it worthwhile to them financially to stay involved. Then utilize the Late Model, Hot Rod & Unlimited classes to attract additional sponsors, participants & fans.

That’s all. LOL

[dontlifttoshift]

Hey Ron! That's pretty insightful, thanks!

[chetly]

Ron, what's a ringer driver? Danny Popp, Mark Steilow, Mike Maier, Kyle Tucker, Robby Unser? Danny is a seasoned vet at auto-x and has won OUSCI twice, Mark is a GM engineer and accomplished driver, Mike is a 7 time SCCA auto-x champion and as you know ran multiple years in USAC, Kyle races BAJA in a class 10 buggy, and Robby has how many Pikes Peaks wins and USAC championships?

[Ron Sutton]

Originally Posted by chetly

Ron, what's a ringer driver? Danny Popp, Mark Steilow, Mike Maier, Kyle Tucker, Robby Unser? Danny is a seasoned vet at auto-x and has won OUSCI twice, Mark is a GM engineer and accomplished driver, Mike is a 7 time SCCA auto-x champion and as you know ran multiple years in USAC, Kyle races BAJA in a class 10 buggy, and Robby has how many Pikes Peaks wins and USAC championships?

Hi Chet,

I like ... and again this is just my opinion ... the rules & definition that USCA has now in the general rules.

20.
Only amateur drivers are allowed to compete for points accumulation, segment or event awards. The USCA defines amateur drivers as: An "amateur driver," whether he/she drives competitively or recreationally, is one who drives for the challenge it presents, not as a profession and not for significant financial gain. If competitive driving is not currently, or ever has been, your primary or significant source of income, you are an amateur.

21.
Professional drivers are not allowed to participate in any segment of any event for any awards. The USCA defines professional drivers as: A “professional driver” has competed at a high level of racing or time trial competition, for compensation that is a significant or primary source of income. USCA officials will grant permission for professional drivers to participate as exhibition drivers.

Of course it's up to USCA to decide how much compensation is a significant financial gain or primary source of income. There were 2 drivers that competed in this years event (Robby Unser & Ryan Matthews) that have raced at professional levels. Whether they did it for a living and/or had significant earnings is a USCA judgement.

In my opinion ... again, that & $4 will get you a cup of coffee ... they should be allowed to run in the Unlimited class, but probably not for sub-class honors ... if such sub-classes existed.

[SSLance]

That's an interesting take on it Ron...I'm still digesting it.

Can you expand more on your idea * Double the points available for “street car” functional features?

Say a basically race car on street tires shows up...aluminum skinned interior, race seats, cage, no creature comforts, runs on race fuel, nearly open headers, nobody in their right mind would want to drive it any further up the street than they had to. In your scenario would the "street car functional features" double points be enough to make up for a considerable speed advantage on the track and courses to a fully outfitted real Pro-Touring street car that any of us would get into and drive across the State?

I'm also wondering how a class structure like this would transfer over to the SCCA, ASCA or Good Guys events which don't include the design and engineering portion in their events? Those sanctioning bodies would probably still need to split the Early American Iron class up into a couple or more classes (maybe by tire size?). At the same time at least in the SCCA's case they don't need the late model class as they already have plenty of those where those cars can already be competitive in.


Would a steel body two seat AMX fit in the Late Model Class? Wasn't there a two seat early Mustang as well? Not sure if those would be considered sports cars or not? For the most part I'm good with the Late Model class. It's a way to separate out the 2 seat cars with the sizeable weight distribution and overall weight advantage from the full bodied cars and also gives the AWD and late model guys a comparable field to compete in.

[Ron Sutton]

Hi Lance,

I wish you could have made it to SEMA & Optima this year. Both were a blast.

Originally Posted by SSLance

That's an interesting take on it Ron...I'm still digesting it.

Can you expand more on your idea * Double the points available for “street car” functional features?

Say a basically race car on street tires shows up...aluminum skinned interior, race seats, cage, no creature comforts, runs on race fuel, nearly open headers, nobody in their right mind would want to drive it any further up the street than they had to.
As you weren't there to see it at this event ... what you're describing above basically did show up & were the fastest cars. I'm not sure on the aluminum skinned interior, but there were cars there with zero interior, full race cage, lightweight dash, one race seat, no creature comforts, killer engines running on race fuel, very little muffling, etc. ... on 200 tread wear tires.

As a racer, I loved it. It was fun to watch. But for the majority of guys that brought real streetable cars, they didn't have a chance & that's disheartening. Those guys had fun, but they won't come back consistently to be back markers. IMO ... I think USCA needs to leave it alone and just add "sub-classes" to reward & encourage the guys that are bringing real street cars in the division or class that best suits their car. Just keep it simple with 2-3 sub-classes, but everyone still participating together.


In your scenario would the "street car functional features" double points be enough to make up for a considerable speed advantage on the track and courses to a fully outfitted real Pro-Touring street car that any of us would get into and drive across the State?
I don't know if double is the right number. And if you'll notice I did not suggest that for the unlimited class ... just the sub-classes. I know the guys with real street cars felt the stripped down NASA/TT style race cars had an unfair advantage.

I'm also wondering how a class structure like this would transfer over to the SCCA, ASCA or Good Guys events which don't include the design and engineering portion in their events? Those sanctioning bodies would probably still need to split the Early American Iron class up into a couple or more classes (maybe by tire size?). At the same time at least in the SCCA's case they don't need the late model class as they already have plenty of those where those cars can already be competitive in.
Again ... my opinion doesn't matter ... and the guys that run USCA will make the decisions on what they think is best for their series, as they should.

But in my opinion, USCA doesn't need to concern itself "too much" with what other sanctioning bodies do, because only USCA is promoting the "Ultimate Street Car."

But it would help the sports of ProTouring, Autocross & HPDE/Track Days if USCA rules were close enough to not exclude legitimate cars. Just as an example, if USCA went to a rule allowing a different treadwear number (higher or lower) it would make it harder for entrants to participate that already run on 200TW tires in CAM or Goodguys autocross. So just keeping the basics the same is very helpful.

Only as an analogy: In dirt, winged Sprint Car racing the rules are pretty similar around the country. So when the big show (World of Outlaws) comes to town ... and it is a 45-50+ car field ... only 20-25 cars actually tour the series. The rest is made up of sprint cars that already race regionally. The World of Outlaws sanctioning body keeps the rules in line with the what happens nationally ... to make it easy for local & regional cars to join in the show & make it the big event it is. I used to do this same strategy with a touring drag race series I promoted. We usually had 9-11 cars that we brought, but if 6-8 more joined in, we had a pretty good field. (For drag race rookies a 16 car field with a 4-round ladder system is common.)


Would a steel body two seat AMX fit in the Late Model Class? Wasn't there a two seat early Mustang as well? Not sure if those would be considered sports cars or not?
In my scenario ... aka "not reality" ... if it was steel 1989 or older, it would fit into the Early American Iron sub-category regardless of back seat.

For the most part I'm good with the Late Model class. It's a way to separate out the 2 seat cars with the sizeable weight distribution and overall weight advantage from the full bodied cars and also gives the AWD and late model guys a comparable field to compete in.

The 2-seat AMX & Mustangs didn't have any significant advantage. Most guys that were there removed their back seat for a roll bar/cage anyway. The 98" short wheelbase is a moderate advantage on the AMX, but a Vega & Pinto are shorter at 97". That is not an advantage on the road course.

The real advantage of the older Corvettes is the high engine set back for better weight distribution. The big advantage of the Shelby Cobras is the super light weight. Combine these with the short wheelbase & the advantage tilts so far in their favor the American Iron cars are on an unfair playing field. So IMHO let all years of Corvettes, Cobras, Vipers, etc compete with the Late Model group.

But it doesn't matter what you & I agree on. LOL !

[Flash68]

Ron Sutton doesn't always drink beer... but when he does... it's not Dos Equis.

Insightful posts, Ron.

[GregWeld]

Just some food for thought since everyone is creating a "racing event" mentality here....


THIS IS A SHOW....


You RACE to get into the "SHOW"....


Many cars are by INVITE (IT is an INVITATIONAL after all...) and may or may not ever do this type of event again. EVER. We hope that they go home and build a badass car and beat on it because they are hooked... but that's beside the point.


My only reason for my super simple "rules" --- i.e., the 3 classes.... was not about "fairness" or about "winning"... it was about RECOGNITION and memories for the participants. A way of at least being recognized for being the "Stielow" or the "Hobaugh" of the event in your "class"... because you're not going to "win" against the newer AWD and late models given similar driver quality. Recognize that the guy with the show car (for christ sake - a guy with a RIDLER car was out there stomping on it!) is there for another glory day - was invited to come out... and a little podium time for him/her is good enough.
The overall winner is to the super competitive guys that fight for every .01 on their times - drive like pros - and win... regardless of what that might look like.

In the end -- it's a show.... not a sanctioned spec build race with tons of rules.

Who here remembers the Bentley the guy brought out and beat it like a Chump car? THAT WAS FUN TO WATCH. PERIOD. I don't care that he had no chance I watched that car like it was chariot sent from heaven. Ditto the ultra rare real Cobra! (okay he spanked everyone).... the best part of that was that he was there and using it for what it was built for.

This year Danny Popp still beat the field in an older (not that old but not a C7 either!) Corvette. He beat the AWD Porsches and EVO's.... and the 1000hp Pro-Touring cars.... and the new Camaros... he beat them all. My point is - it can be done...

I just don't care to go out there and watch RACE CARS.... but I still like 'em all!! LOL

[Ben@SpeedTech]

When I went to the Hotchkis Autocross at Fontana last month it was the first race other than local SCCA events I've participated in. I was VERY surprised to see that about half,maybe more (?) of the cars there were late model. At first I thought cool, I'll see how my old car compares to late stuff. After watching a bunch run and then getting my turn I was a bit dissapointed at just how much faster they were. "Oh well, I guess I'll take keeping up with new Camaros off my list." I stopped watching them and paid attention to the old cars after that point. Late model cars are, although cool, boring. How easy is it to buy a late model, put sticky tires and maybe a set of springs (?) and go dominate? My car is completely transformed from where it was stock using bolt on parts and some ingenuity but it's hopeless to think I could ever compete with those guys. When I race SCCA or if there weren't classes, like Ron said, after a while I go back to driving my street/strip Nova with 4.56 gears, a 12:1 small block and no interior on the street because at least I can have a chance at crossing the finish line first again.

There has to be a division between years IMO.

Too many and/or specific rules creates muddy water and an anal retentive inspector can ruin someone's day. I'm building custom door panels for my car because I'm a designer and stock appearing means no creativity in your build to me. My car has notched frame rails and minitubs. But I did that so I can run a wider wheel and 275s without rubbing. So where would I fit in with either of these mods- likely in a class that I couldn't keep up with yet my car really isn'rt any different than the lower class I should be in.

With the chassis bracing and roll cage and stripping anything I don't need the car weighs 3550 without me in it. I'm a light weight so it's 3700 with me. 3850+ with a ride along. How do I compete against a 3000 Camaro when we both have 275 tires and that's the rules? I could gut the doors, dump the interior, install lexan, etc. to lighten it up to be fair, but then it's deemed a race car. More power may be the answer, but that creates a whole new world of controlling tire spin on the autocross. It's all like a damned if you do and damned if you don't scenario.

I took out the a/c and heater, along with anything else I don't need to drive the car yet still appear to be a street car. I roast in 118* weather in the summer and I'm a little chilly in the 45 degree winter weather on the way back and forth to work everyday, but I've gotten used to it. Does that really make my car not a street car? All my exterior lights work and I do have a simple stereo if that means anything. I have a fire extinguisher mounted on the trans tunnel too, so technically my car is more safe than a factory car.

In Fontana, the majority of the cars were between 50 and 47 seconds, separated often by a 10th or even 100th of a second. If I were to put on an event, I'd run classes by ability, which could mean any combination of the car and driver. If you get 3 trial runs and run a 31 second time, then you fit in the 31-30 sec class. If you run 29.5 during the event, you get bumped into the 29-28 sec class. And so forth. Sandbagging to win a class that you're realistically overqualified for would be a little harder than in drag racing, if you look at the times of the winners at Fontana there were several seconds between their different runs. A simple taking of the turn wrong or a little unexpected tire spin somewhere would throw calculated sandbagging out the window. If there was a class where I had a 2 second range to win, then pushing my car harder towards it's limits and becoming a better driver would be the only factors in whether I could really be competitive or not. It would have absolutely nothing to do with what tire size, vehicle weight, appearance, parts, paint color, what the driver had for dinner last night, etc. It's a simple competition of which car is fastest within a small bracket. It also makes for anyone and any car at any level realistically able to be competitive within their class. So, that full race prepped 69 Camaro could be competitive against that Lotus or AWD GTr. And a home garage built budget G body station wagon could be competitive against a home built budget 69 Camaro. And Mom, who came to watch, could run her minivan against that old fellow (who also originally cam just to watch) in his rental car 6 cyl Mustang. See where this is headed? Everyone has a realistic chance, more people come out to race, more people like to watch a variety of cars and see some heated competition, more amateurs and newbies get involved at their skill level, and more vendors get to rub shoulders with enthusiasts of all ends of the spectrum. Hmmm, sounds a lot like a very competitive and successful classification used in drag racing, that the test of time shows works.

Beyond what everyone said, I think there should be a station wagon class. That would be by far the most fun to watch. I say in that class you can strap in as many people as you can fit, you're allowed one pet hanging half out the window, and you have to have a bag of groceries not fall over in the cargo area during your sojourn around the course. Now that would be interesting and a lot of fun for the crowds. I'd be all over that one, lol!