What would a USCA pro-touring class look like??

[SSLance]

That's an interesting take on it Ron...I'm still digesting it.

Can you expand more on your idea * Double the points available for “street car” functional features?

Say a basically race car on street tires shows up...aluminum skinned interior, race seats, cage, no creature comforts, runs on race fuel, nearly open headers, nobody in their right mind would want to drive it any further up the street than they had to. In your scenario would the "street car functional features" double points be enough to make up for a considerable speed advantage on the track and courses to a fully outfitted real Pro-Touring street car that any of us would get into and drive across the State?

I'm also wondering how a class structure like this would transfer over to the SCCA, ASCA or Good Guys events which don't include the design and engineering portion in their events? Those sanctioning bodies would probably still need to split the Early American Iron class up into a couple or more classes (maybe by tire size?). At the same time at least in the SCCA's case they don't need the late model class as they already have plenty of those where those cars can already be competitive in.


Would a steel body two seat AMX fit in the Late Model Class? Wasn't there a two seat early Mustang as well? Not sure if those would be considered sports cars or not? For the most part I'm good with the Late Model class. It's a way to separate out the 2 seat cars with the sizeable weight distribution and overall weight advantage from the full bodied cars and also gives the AWD and late model guys a comparable field to compete in.

[Ron Sutton]

Originally Posted by chetly

Ron, what's a ringer driver? Danny Popp, Mark Steilow, Mike Maier, Kyle Tucker, Robby Unser? Danny is a seasoned vet at auto-x and has won OUSCI twice, Mark is a GM engineer and accomplished driver, Mike is a 7 time SCCA auto-x champion and as you know ran multiple years in USAC, Kyle races BAJA in a class 10 buggy, and Robby has how many Pikes Peaks wins and USAC championships?

Hi Chet,

I like ... and again this is just my opinion ... the rules & definition that USCA has now in the general rules.

20.
Only amateur drivers are allowed to compete for points accumulation, segment or event awards. The USCA defines amateur drivers as: An "amateur driver," whether he/she drives competitively or recreationally, is one who drives for the challenge it presents, not as a profession and not for significant financial gain. If competitive driving is not currently, or ever has been, your primary or significant source of income, you are an amateur.

21.
Professional drivers are not allowed to participate in any segment of any event for any awards. The USCA defines professional drivers as: A “professional driver” has competed at a high level of racing or time trial competition, for compensation that is a significant or primary source of income. USCA officials will grant permission for professional drivers to participate as exhibition drivers.

Of course it's up to USCA to decide how much compensation is a significant financial gain or primary source of income. There were 2 drivers that competed in this years event (Robby Unser & Ryan Matthews) that have raced at professional levels. Whether they did it for a living and/or had significant earnings is a USCA judgement.

In my opinion ... again, that & $4 will get you a cup of coffee ... they should be allowed to run in the Unlimited class, but probably not for sub-class honors ... if such sub-classes existed.

[Ron Sutton]

Hi Lance,

I wish you could have made it to SEMA & Optima this year. Both were a blast.

Originally Posted by SSLance

That's an interesting take on it Ron...I'm still digesting it.

Can you expand more on your idea * Double the points available for “street car” functional features?

Say a basically race car on street tires shows up...aluminum skinned interior, race seats, cage, no creature comforts, runs on race fuel, nearly open headers, nobody in their right mind would want to drive it any further up the street than they had to.
As you weren't there to see it at this event ... what you're describing above basically did show up & were the fastest cars. I'm not sure on the aluminum skinned interior, but there were cars there with zero interior, full race cage, lightweight dash, one race seat, no creature comforts, killer engines running on race fuel, very little muffling, etc. ... on 200 tread wear tires.

As a racer, I loved it. It was fun to watch. But for the majority of guys that brought real streetable cars, they didn't have a chance & that's disheartening. Those guys had fun, but they won't come back consistently to be back markers. IMO ... I think USCA needs to leave it alone and just add "sub-classes" to reward & encourage the guys that are bringing real street cars in the division or class that best suits their car. Just keep it simple with 2-3 sub-classes, but everyone still participating together.


In your scenario would the "street car functional features" double points be enough to make up for a considerable speed advantage on the track and courses to a fully outfitted real Pro-Touring street car that any of us would get into and drive across the State?
I don't know if double is the right number. And if you'll notice I did not suggest that for the unlimited class ... just the sub-classes. I know the guys with real street cars felt the stripped down NASA/TT style race cars had an unfair advantage.

I'm also wondering how a class structure like this would transfer over to the SCCA, ASCA or Good Guys events which don't include the design and engineering portion in their events? Those sanctioning bodies would probably still need to split the Early American Iron class up into a couple or more classes (maybe by tire size?). At the same time at least in the SCCA's case they don't need the late model class as they already have plenty of those where those cars can already be competitive in.
Again ... my opinion doesn't matter ... and the guys that run USCA will make the decisions on what they think is best for their series, as they should.

But in my opinion, USCA doesn't need to concern itself "too much" with what other sanctioning bodies do, because only USCA is promoting the "Ultimate Street Car."

But it would help the sports of ProTouring, Autocross & HPDE/Track Days if USCA rules were close enough to not exclude legitimate cars. Just as an example, if USCA went to a rule allowing a different treadwear number (higher or lower) it would make it harder for entrants to participate that already run on 200TW tires in CAM or Goodguys autocross. So just keeping the basics the same is very helpful.

Only as an analogy: In dirt, winged Sprint Car racing the rules are pretty similar around the country. So when the big show (World of Outlaws) comes to town ... and it is a 45-50+ car field ... only 20-25 cars actually tour the series. The rest is made up of sprint cars that already race regionally. The World of Outlaws sanctioning body keeps the rules in line with the what happens nationally ... to make it easy for local & regional cars to join in the show & make it the big event it is. I used to do this same strategy with a touring drag race series I promoted. We usually had 9-11 cars that we brought, but if 6-8 more joined in, we had a pretty good field. (For drag race rookies a 16 car field with a 4-round ladder system is common.)


Would a steel body two seat AMX fit in the Late Model Class? Wasn't there a two seat early Mustang as well? Not sure if those would be considered sports cars or not?
In my scenario ... aka "not reality" ... if it was steel 1989 or older, it would fit into the Early American Iron sub-category regardless of back seat.

For the most part I'm good with the Late Model class. It's a way to separate out the 2 seat cars with the sizeable weight distribution and overall weight advantage from the full bodied cars and also gives the AWD and late model guys a comparable field to compete in.

The 2-seat AMX & Mustangs didn't have any significant advantage. Most guys that were there removed their back seat for a roll bar/cage anyway. The 98" short wheelbase is a moderate advantage on the AMX, but a Vega & Pinto are shorter at 97". That is not an advantage on the road course.

The real advantage of the older Corvettes is the high engine set back for better weight distribution. The big advantage of the Shelby Cobras is the super light weight. Combine these with the short wheelbase & the advantage tilts so far in their favor the American Iron cars are on an unfair playing field. So IMHO let all years of Corvettes, Cobras, Vipers, etc compete with the Late Model group.

But it doesn't matter what you & I agree on. LOL !

[Flash68]

Ron Sutton doesn't always drink beer... but when he does... it's not Dos Equis.

Insightful posts, Ron.

[GregWeld]

Just some food for thought since everyone is creating a "racing event" mentality here....


THIS IS A SHOW....


You RACE to get into the "SHOW"....


Many cars are by INVITE (IT is an INVITATIONAL after all...) and may or may not ever do this type of event again. EVER. We hope that they go home and build a badass car and beat on it because they are hooked... but that's beside the point.


My only reason for my super simple "rules" --- i.e., the 3 classes.... was not about "fairness" or about "winning"... it was about RECOGNITION and memories for the participants. A way of at least being recognized for being the "Stielow" or the "Hobaugh" of the event in your "class"... because you're not going to "win" against the newer AWD and late models given similar driver quality. Recognize that the guy with the show car (for christ sake - a guy with a RIDLER car was out there stomping on it!) is there for another glory day - was invited to come out... and a little podium time for him/her is good enough.
The overall winner is to the super competitive guys that fight for every .01 on their times - drive like pros - and win... regardless of what that might look like.

In the end -- it's a show.... not a sanctioned spec build race with tons of rules.

Who here remembers the Bentley the guy brought out and beat it like a Chump car? THAT WAS FUN TO WATCH. PERIOD. I don't care that he had no chance I watched that car like it was chariot sent from heaven. Ditto the ultra rare real Cobra! (okay he spanked everyone).... the best part of that was that he was there and using it for what it was built for.

This year Danny Popp still beat the field in an older (not that old but not a C7 either!) Corvette. He beat the AWD Porsches and EVO's.... and the 1000hp Pro-Touring cars.... and the new Camaros... he beat them all. My point is - it can be done...

I just don't care to go out there and watch RACE CARS.... but I still like 'em all!! LOL

[Ben@SpeedTech]

When I went to the Hotchkis Autocross at Fontana last month it was the first race other than local SCCA events I've participated in. I was VERY surprised to see that about half,maybe more (?) of the cars there were late model. At first I thought cool, I'll see how my old car compares to late stuff. After watching a bunch run and then getting my turn I was a bit dissapointed at just how much faster they were. "Oh well, I guess I'll take keeping up with new Camaros off my list." I stopped watching them and paid attention to the old cars after that point. Late model cars are, although cool, boring. How easy is it to buy a late model, put sticky tires and maybe a set of springs (?) and go dominate? My car is completely transformed from where it was stock using bolt on parts and some ingenuity but it's hopeless to think I could ever compete with those guys. When I race SCCA or if there weren't classes, like Ron said, after a while I go back to driving my street/strip Nova with 4.56 gears, a 12:1 small block and no interior on the street because at least I can have a chance at crossing the finish line first again.

There has to be a division between years IMO.

Too many and/or specific rules creates muddy water and an anal retentive inspector can ruin someone's day. I'm building custom door panels for my car because I'm a designer and stock appearing means no creativity in your build to me. My car has notched frame rails and minitubs. But I did that so I can run a wider wheel and 275s without rubbing. So where would I fit in with either of these mods- likely in a class that I couldn't keep up with yet my car really isn'rt any different than the lower class I should be in.

With the chassis bracing and roll cage and stripping anything I don't need the car weighs 3550 without me in it. I'm a light weight so it's 3700 with me. 3850+ with a ride along. How do I compete against a 3000 Camaro when we both have 275 tires and that's the rules? I could gut the doors, dump the interior, install lexan, etc. to lighten it up to be fair, but then it's deemed a race car. More power may be the answer, but that creates a whole new world of controlling tire spin on the autocross. It's all like a damned if you do and damned if you don't scenario.

I took out the a/c and heater, along with anything else I don't need to drive the car yet still appear to be a street car. I roast in 118* weather in the summer and I'm a little chilly in the 45 degree winter weather on the way back and forth to work everyday, but I've gotten used to it. Does that really make my car not a street car? All my exterior lights work and I do have a simple stereo if that means anything. I have a fire extinguisher mounted on the trans tunnel too, so technically my car is more safe than a factory car.

In Fontana, the majority of the cars were between 50 and 47 seconds, separated often by a 10th or even 100th of a second. If I were to put on an event, I'd run classes by ability, which could mean any combination of the car and driver. If you get 3 trial runs and run a 31 second time, then you fit in the 31-30 sec class. If you run 29.5 during the event, you get bumped into the 29-28 sec class. And so forth. Sandbagging to win a class that you're realistically overqualified for would be a little harder than in drag racing, if you look at the times of the winners at Fontana there were several seconds between their different runs. A simple taking of the turn wrong or a little unexpected tire spin somewhere would throw calculated sandbagging out the window. If there was a class where I had a 2 second range to win, then pushing my car harder towards it's limits and becoming a better driver would be the only factors in whether I could really be competitive or not. It would have absolutely nothing to do with what tire size, vehicle weight, appearance, parts, paint color, what the driver had for dinner last night, etc. It's a simple competition of which car is fastest within a small bracket. It also makes for anyone and any car at any level realistically able to be competitive within their class. So, that full race prepped 69 Camaro could be competitive against that Lotus or AWD GTr. And a home garage built budget G body station wagon could be competitive against a home built budget 69 Camaro. And Mom, who came to watch, could run her minivan against that old fellow (who also originally cam just to watch) in his rental car 6 cyl Mustang. See where this is headed? Everyone has a realistic chance, more people come out to race, more people like to watch a variety of cars and see some heated competition, more amateurs and newbies get involved at their skill level, and more vendors get to rub shoulders with enthusiasts of all ends of the spectrum. Hmmm, sounds a lot like a very competitive and successful classification used in drag racing, that the test of time shows works.

Beyond what everyone said, I think there should be a station wagon class. That would be by far the most fun to watch. I say in that class you can strap in as many people as you can fit, you're allowed one pet hanging half out the window, and you have to have a bag of groceries not fall over in the cargo area during your sojourn around the course. Now that would be interesting and a lot of fun for the crowds. I'd be all over that one, lol!

[sik68]

I am totally with Greg and Ron on this... keeping it simple will keep the most engagement for participants and spectators alike. Everyone competes together (no run groups based on category). Just give each category a certain color decal or something.

Example:

Pro Open----------(the Danny Popp's - resumes req'd)
Pro Vintage-------(the Mark Stielow's - resumes req'd)
Amateur Open----(Your buddy with the M3)
Amateur Vintage--(Most of us on this site)

Exhibition/Show--(SEMA builds, race cars, etc)

[Sieg]

These guys might have the 'right' attitude:

[GregWeld]

I LOVED THAT CAR!!! It was so kool and they had so much fun!!

[PTAddict]

Originally Posted by camcojb

Mark Stielow sent me his thoughts in an email this morning:

Pre-1980
Only 4 seaters
American Made
50% stock floor pans
Any 200 tread wear tires


Maybe 2 classes

Stock Chassis / Frame and no bigger that 275 tires

Modified chassis and mini tubbed any size tire

The easy way to go is work with the SCCA and make the CAM class the same as the Pro-Touring classes.

This is, not surprisingly, very sensible. I like the idea that you can have a class that doesn't require Stielow/Hobaugh levels of time/money investment to be competitive. And I also like that there is a class to push the limits on the traditional Pro-Touring definition. And the idea of SCCA/USCA crossover.

I still wonder about some kind of real streetability criteria in the final judging. Of course, it will be inevitably subjective, but so is the design section today. The enjoyment of driving a car regularly on the street encompasses a lot of factors - basic legal compliance, seat comfort, NHV, climate control, audio system, interior aesthetics, general responsiveness and predicability in control inputs, to name some of the most obvious. And there is also the subjective Cool Factor - does the car engage the car guys and the general public? What I see is that these criteria are currently of quite limited importance relative to track performance in the USCA world - despite the fact that "Street Car" is the middle name of the association.

Not at all to be negative of Optima and USCA - just the passion on this thread alone proves how important and energizing you folks are! Please keep doing this, and take all this input from us with the appropriate underlying tone of appreciation, and the appropriate grain of salt